Names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle

[Craig L Barry]

Other names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle. Okay, I'll start with two most common...

1. Mississippi Rifle
2. Harpers Ferry Rifle (though that name was also used to refer to the US 1855 two band rifle)

[ACo.]

Re: Names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle

In Virgina the M1841 was referred to as the Jaeger (pronounced "Yawger") Rifle.

[mslaird]

Re: Names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle

It is also a very good possibility that unschooled, green, soldiers were referring to the brass furnitured Mississippi in the numerous, and sometimes proven from returns and issue reciepts from both sides of the particular engagement to be erronious, references to "squirrel rifles" and "country rifles."

[yeoman]

Re: Names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle

Sir, another name would be, "Windsor rifle".

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showpost.php?p=123518&postcount=14

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle

Hallo!

A Period trend, and perhaps rightfully so, was to refer to the M1841 by maker not design.
So, expanding on the "Windsor" rifle, there are references to "Whitney"
rifle, "Remington" rifle and "Palmetto" rifle as well.

I can't recall a "Robbins, Kendall & Lawrence" rifle or a "Robbins & Lawrence" rifle but suspect they fall under the "Windsor" rifle umbrella appellage.

;) :)

Across history and across modern firearm collecting and reenacting, the terminology is a combination of "official," "Period," "Period personal," "modern typology classifications," and "hobby jargon" (ex: the "M1860" Henry rifle, or the "M1858" Remington revolver, the "M1863" Remington Pocket Revolver, and the dreaded "Zouave" rifle).

Curt

[Prodical Reb]

Re: Names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle

What about "Davis Rifle" or "Jeff Davis Rifle", was that a period term? Or did it come about after the ACW? J.D. did command the Mississippi volunteers who were armed w/US 1841 in the Mexican war.

[Minieball577]

Re: Names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle

Curt's mention of the "Remington Rifles" and his unrelated mention of the "Dreaded Zouave" demonstrates one of the problems with period terminology and modern perception. Curt is right on. Remington Rifles are often listed in returns, and probably mean 1841 Mississippis made by Remington. The term Remington Rifle, however, is very frequently used to "prove" usage of the Remington built "Zouave" (Modern term) rifles that were in all likelihood never issued to anyone in the period.

[David Fox]

Re: Names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle

Another contemporary name for the M.1841 in its original round ball mode: "#@!!*%". That when, like all patched muzzleloading round ball rifles, it clogged after but a few rounds. This, of course, is why the minie ball was such an improvement in muzzleloading military rifled shoulder arms. Also, when M.1841s were yet in their original .54 calibre, with rifling depth and spiral pitch calculated to best stabalize a round ball, the results of merely substitutiong a minie weren't altogether wonderful down range. This was one of two primary reasons for so many being rebored and rerifled to handle standard M.1855 .58 calibre ammunition.

[mslaird]

Re: Names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle

Mr. Fox, I believe that is still the named given to any firearm that so malfunctions when needed badly.:D

I had forgotten completely about the "Windsor" moniker. It was those particular Model 1841 contract rifles that allowed Kendall, Robbins and Lawrence to get the English Contract that led to producing not only Enfield P-53s but tooling for the British during the Crimean War.

[David Fox]

Re: Names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle

Matthew: you're absolutely correct. A faulty weapon is the bane of a combat soldier. What reminded me of the marginal military efficiency of round ball muzzleloaders, including the M.1841, was the recollection that in Vietnam in 1968 my issue M.16A1 routinely jammed after the first round. We kept assembled cleaning rods which were run through the opening under the carrying handle and affixed to an M60 machinegun link attached to the front sight base. The SOP was, upon the malfunction, to produce the cleaning rod, run it down the muzzle to punch out the offending stuck case, and resume firing. More than once I was minded of my Civil War great grandfathers as, after 100 years, I was STILL wielding a ramrod to fire my weapon at the enemy. Handsome as M.1841s were and as important as they are for reenacting (especially) the earlies of the Civil War, in the original calibre they were not a maiden's dream of the best rifled arm available in 1861.

[mslaird]

Re: Names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle

My weapon had the problem of the firing pin sticking in the bolt face and emptying the magazine for me at inopportune times.

The guys I always felt bad for were the 7th at Little Bighorn. They had the supposed pinnacle of technology for the time and were reduced to having to dig out stuck, fired cases with their pocketknives under fire reducing their rate of fire to the equivalent of musket armed infantry or worse while fighting folks with lever action repeating rifles and carbines.

You also brough up a good point with the depth of the grooves in the .54 caliber rifling of the Mississippi being hell on accuracy with a .535 caliber minie bullet. The gas pushed right by the bullet, did not expand it properly and caused it to keyhole and occilate in flight.

Company K, 3rd Louisiana Infantry had .54 caliber 1841s that were purchased from the Baton Rouge arsenal when the Pelican Rifles were a social militia organization in Baton Rouge in the 1850s. They had the same trouble and, at times, were forced to "pare down" other ammunition to make ball to shoot patched. The .54 caliber Mississippi is a very accurate rifle when shooting patched round ball, and it has a tremendous amount of kenetic killing power, but it is as slow as Christmas to load when the fouling starts to build up.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle

It is also a very good possibility that unschooled, green, soldiers were referring to the brass furnitured Mississippi in the numerous, and sometimes proven from returns and issue reciepts from both sides of the particular engagement to be erronious, references to "squirrel rifles" and "country rifles."

Since this is the sinks....and there are very few, if any, traceable historical sources noted in this thread...I”ll add that I don't believe that most men of the time would be naive enough not to know the difference in a martial arm and a hunting gun. Erronoius or not. We are talking about a gun rich period. The few times that I have seen “country guns" (et al) in a war time document, military styles have been listed too.

[mslaird]

Re: Names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle

I can most certainly provide you with the references necessary for my posting. I don't make a habit of saying things that I cannot back up with good research having already been done. I was stating a good possibility for the common use of the phrase by men encountering soldiers whose weaponry is known, such as the reports of men who were in the 37th Illinois at Leetown, facing Hebert's Brigade. They had Mississippi Rifles in their ranks. They were said to be carrying "squirrel" and "country" rifles when the returns from and receipts of issue to those troops state that they were carrying Mississippi Rifles. Also in the realm of hard physical evidence from a site, according to extensive archeological survey, the only evidence found of a weapon of civilian caliber, in this case .50 round ball from a rifle, was one, one only, projectile fired from that type of weapon at Leetown. Sir, the evidence speaks for itself. If it is required I will happily post my written sources for you to read. My only intent is to offer my own assistance in understand this very complex problem of looking back 147 years to understand that which we have little to rely on.

You are correct that it was a gun rich environment, especially in my particular Theatre of extensive study, the Trans-Mississippi. Even outside the bounds of this region, there were many other types of weapons that could have easily been mistaken for civilian arms. British Brunswick rifles were used by both sides in limited numbers and those very closely resemble the Jaeger hunting rifle that was common and popular throughout the late 18th and early 19th centuries. The "Turner" rifles, that have many different varieties of weapons included in them, were a civilian firearm, adapted for military use for social militia and shooting clubs before the American Civil War. In addition, numerous paper circulars were issued throughout the first months of the war, notably here in Arkansas, where the state Military Board was purchasing every rifle and shotgun they could get their hands upon. The rifles were converted to percussion at the arsenal in Little Rock, by gunsmiths under contract and at Arkadelphia's arsenal, the barrels were turned down to accept bayonets and rebored to .58 caliber. In addition to this very thick soup of firearms is the issuance of the 1803 and 1809 Harpers Ferry, the 1817 Common Rifle, the 1819 Common Rifle- all having patchboxes on their stocks-- which a person, having no experience, could easily misidentify as a common civilian rifle. Then to compound this, even soldiers who had military firearms were still poor with some of the acoutrements necessary and were carrying powderhorns and shotbags or they were issued old 1817,1819 and 1839 rifleman's acoutrements sets that were made up of said equipment that the state authorities siezed out of the arsenals with the weapons.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle

Well then post the references and the archaeological record and we'll speculated from there if they were in fact calling martial arms squirrel rifles.

[mslaird]

Re: Names for the US 1841 Percussion Rifle

Consider it done. I will get you all of the sources and post them, though it is up to you to find them and read them for yourself. I, unfortunately, do not have the time to type them all out for you. However, if any of them prove to be difficult to get, let me know and I will do what I can to find a way to get it for you. As far as the archeological records, they are supposed to be published fairly soon and the ones that I have had privy to are related strictly to Pea Ridge.