Perceptions of Scotch-Irish Identity in the US

[ajroscoe]

The post that was up earlier today about the upcoming "Cleburne" movie got me thinking about how we categorize the Scotch-Irish and Anglo-Irish in this country and whether this is a twisting of how those people viewed themselves in the time period we as living historians address. Most Americans today who refer to themselves as "Scotch-Irish" usually only imply the "Irish" part of that. The actual history of "Ulster Scots" (the more period term from my reading), were Scotch Protestants, especially Presbyterians, who migrated almost exclusively to the 6 counties around Ulster and to Dublin in order to keep order against the native Catholic Irish. When many migrated to the Colonies and later the United States, they came to this country as Scots who had lived in Ireland, but maintained their Scottish heritage (mostly lowlander Scots). Many of the words associated with this period, "critter" instead of creature, "fixing," "thar" instead of there, "cracker" for a braggert, or "redneck" for a Presbyterian are all words from the Scots language - the Scottish Middle English language that is used in Scotland to this day - not Gaelic. A similar story follows the Anglo-Irish, who were encouraged to immigrate to Ireland with the promise of Catholic land in order to help rule and subdue the Irish. Men such as Aurthur Wellesley, otherwise known as the Duke of Wellington, certainly thought of themselves as Englishmen and not Irish, despite the place of their birth.
So, what sources has anyone found that would either reinforce this or dispute it? I think that we strongly over-emphasize the "Irish" part of both "Scotch-Irish" and "Anglo-Irish," and believe that both of those groups much more strongly associated themselves as Scottish or English than Irish. The accounts I have read that mention this point that way, but I will be the first to admit that I have seen only a small group of them. Can anyone else provide some insight or discussion?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Perceptions of Scotch-Irish Identity in the US

Hallo!

A branch of my wife's family were original Lowland Scot "border rievers," the Bells, who ended up as part of 16th century Queen Elizabeth's "plantation" system of being sent to Ireland as "Ulstermen."
The family was employed in the linen weaving industry along the Bann River near Banbridge, Ireland in the 18th century and migrated to PA and OH in the 1790's.
There are no family letters, history, or even myth or lore that would indicate that they ever considered or referred to themselves as
anythng," let alone "Scots-Irish" at any time or in any way.

Not that that is noteworthy, just that it is one example of one family seemingly not dwelling on their origins (or possibly being "melting potted" had long since "lost" their ethnicity or nationalities and were "just" Pennsylvanians or "Ohioans" if they even ever considered that by the time of the Civil War.
They were long since "acculturated" way before the Potato Famine and subsequent anti-Irish sentiment in the U.S. particularly in the 1850's and particularly by such groups as the Know Nothings.

On the other hand, my father's family were 19th century immigrant "Germans" in PA. They remained highly "ethnic," to the point of attending German Lutheran curch in German, socializing only with fellow "Germans" such as in the Turnverein, and exclusively marrying only other Germans or American children of German parents or grandparents until
1973.

Curt

[Auld Pelty]

Re: Perceptions of Scotch-Irish Identity in the US

Prior to the huge waive of Irish Catholics immigrating to America in the mid-19th Century, the vast majority of Irish immigrants were Protestant Ulstermen and they correctly referred to themselves as Irish. The Scots-Irish distinction became popular afterwards because these same people (of Scottish decent) wanted to distinguish themselves from the ethnic Irish Catholics.

Patrick Cleburne was among the majority of Catholic immigrants as was Dick Dowling.

http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mcclell2/homepage/migrate.htm

[yipper]

Re: Perceptions of Scotch-Irish Identity in the US

Gents,

I recently finished Horace Kephart's "Our Southern Highlanders". Kephart gives a pretty good account of the movement of the Scotch Presbyterians into the six counties of Ulster, and then to Pennsylvania and on to the southern Appalachians. Most of his fine book describes their descendants as he encountered them in the area of what is now the Great Smoky Mountains National Park in the early 1900's.

regards,

geoffrey lehmann

[ajroscoe]

Re: Perceptions of Scotch-Irish Identity in the US

Fergus, do you have any documents, letters, diaries, memoirs, etc that support your statement that, "they correctly referred to themselves as Irish"? My contention is that very point that they did not refer to themselves as "Irish" as we believe today, that in fact the average Ulster Scot settlement fought long and hard to maintain its strictly separate and unique identity in Ireland and brought that ethnic identity to the New World instead of the geographic identity that a couple to a half dozen generations of living in Ireland would provide. I find it very hard to accept that the majority of these immigrants still spoke Scots as their primary language upon their arrival here, a language spoken in Lowland Scotland and some places in the Highlands, as well as Ulster, in the 18th century, when most of these immigrants came over, if they felt themselves to be "Irish." I certainly understand Curt's point about "melting" into the culture and I find that very easy to understand and accept, and have seen much evidence as to it, however, I have seen little to none that the Ulster Scots by and large thought of themselves as "Irish," rather Scots who moved first to Ireland and then later to America.

[TATTOOS1]

Re: Perceptions of Scotch-Irish Identity in the US

RE...Patrick Cleburne was among the majority of Catholic immigrants as was Dick Dowling.

Pards ,
i cannot stress enough how sensitive an issue this is, as an Ulster/Scot myself i must emphasise the need to see this matter is accuratly dealt with.
My first point that i would like to state is at the time of the American Civil War , Cleburnes home city of Dublin was the second largest Protestant city in the British Empire , and that his religion was most definitly that of the reformed faith as was his father who was a prominent PROTESTANT doctor.
Of the 36.3 million americans who claim Irish desendancy, 32 million of them are actually Ulster/Scots , a FACT that many americans would do well to remember! It is fair to say that although many Ulster Protestants found themselves fighting for the Confederacy in the South , and although obviously a huge number of Catholic Irish formed whole regiments for the union , this was not always the case as we all know.
However if we are going to portray and immortalise men like Cleburne , we owe it to them and there memory to be accurate in every way we can , especially if Hollywood is to have its way, because lets face it they have been wrong in the past!!
Over my years as a living historian i have made many friends in the states , many of whom through no fault of there own had been under the impression that although there forebears had come from the island of Ireland, there actual nationality and religious denomination was completly different to what they were living there lives as. This in itself as i have already expressed is a sensitive issue and one that i feel is very important to everyone concerned , for if we dont know where we came from, how can we truly know who we are?

Bill Brown
43rd NC

A & AFM LODGE FRIENDSHIP 1712 EDINBURGH,
WIDOWS SONS MESS

[Jubilo]

Re: Perceptions of Scotch-Irish Identity in the US

Dear Sir,
Americans being egocentric use the phrase "Scots-Irish" ; it unknown anywhere else, whereas during the Colonial period anyone from Ireland was "Irish", regardless of religious affiliation. The first St. Patrick's Day parade in America was hosted by Protestant Irish immigrants in Boston.

Most of what is generally considered "Irish," is the result of immigration to this country begining in the 1840's and continued to this day. This is the Irish the media represents.

Cleburne was baptized in the Church of Ireland which is Protestant Anglican. He has been "adopted" by all Hiberniophiles since the "Celtic Craze," of last century's decades along with the Chieftains,U-2, Celtic-rock,and far too many bodhrans! Much like " I was country when country wasn't cool," Americans of Irish Protestant of Ulster Scots heritage suddenly claimed to be "Irish," which was in this country almost the percieved title of Catholic Irish. Confusing isn't it?
all for the old flag, (American, that is),
David Corbett

[Auld Pelty]

Re: Perceptions of Scotch-Irish Identity in the US

Fergus, do you have any documents, letters, diaries, memoirs, etc that support your statement that, "they correctly referred to themselves as Irish"? My contention is that very point that they did not refer to themselves as "Irish" as we believe today, that in fact the average Ulster Scot settlement fought long and hard to maintain its strictly separate and unique identity in Ireland and brought that ethnic identity to the New World instead of the geographic identity that a couple to a half dozen generations of living in Ireland would provide. I find it very hard to accept that the majority of these immigrants still spoke Scots as their primary language upon their arrival here, a language spoken in Lowland Scotland and some places in the Highlands, as well as Ulster, in the 18th century, when most of these immigrants came over, if they felt themselves to be "Irish." I certainly understand Curt's point about "melting" into the culture and I find that very easy to understand and accept, and have seen much evidence as to it, however, I have seen little to none that the Ulster Scots by and large thought of themselves as "Irish," rather Scots who moved first to Ireland and then later to America.

I do not have a reference book handy to cite where I read about how ethnic Scots from Ulster referred to themselves after moving to America. It has just been too long ago. The summation below from a genealogist is very close to what I researched...long time ago.


So Who Were These "Scot-Irish"?
The term Scot-Irish (often mispronounced Scotch-Irish, any Scot will quickly correct you as Scotch is something you drink, while the Scots are a peope from Scotland) was never used by the Scot-Irish themselves. Often born and raised in Ireland and a generation or two from Scotland, the Scot-Irish merely referred to themselves as Irish. The term Scot-Irish was not used by those arrivals in the late 1600's and early 1700's from Ulster until the unpopularity arose from the arrivals of those from Ireland during the potato famine in the 1800's.

http://genealogical-gleanings.com/Scot-Irish.htm

[English Doc]

Re: Perceptions of Scotch-Irish Identity in the US

As an addition. No true, self respecting Scot would EVER refer to him/herself as 'Scotch' - that, my friends, is a warming beverage!

[ajroscoe]

Re: Perceptions of Scotch-Irish Identity in the US

Ken, actually, from my reading, the term "Scotch" was still in vogue at the time for speaking about anything Scottish, not just certainly objects (eggs and whiskey). No less a Scot than Robert Burns, famous poet who wrote in both Scots and English, wrote the song "Auld Lang Syne" in 1788 (the title is Scots for "old long since" or "long, long ago"), and was dubbed "Scotland's most Famous Son," said "Apropos, is not the Scotch phrase Auld lang syne exceedingly expressive? There is an old song and tune which has often thrilled through my soul. You know I am an enthusiast in old Scotch songs." He also said this about himself: "The appellation of a Scotch Bard, is by far my highest pride; to continue to deserve it is my most exalted ambition." Also, in the history "The Scotch" by John Galbraith, he studies the Scottish ancestors of 19th century immigrants in Ontario and documents their proud use of the adjective "Scotch" to describe themselves.
Obviously, I am not attempting to offend anyone, but I am trying to challenge the misconceptions that seem to be rife on this subject, and trying to force us to look at this subject through the lens of the time, not through our own beliefs and dogma. This is a subject that has been of some interest to me for some time and I would love to see more about this group that played such an absolutely important part in American history as well as the Civil War.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Perceptions of Scotch-Irish Identity in the US

Ken, actually, from my reading, the term "Scotch" was still in vogue at the time for speaking about anything Scottish, not just certainly objects (eggs and whiskey).

I'm also curious whether in the period someone would correct a person who used the term "Scotch-Irish," or would not use it to refer to himself. Click on this link, for example, compared to this link or this link. Edited to add another one.

The links lead to period books that include the phrase "I am Scotch," "I am a Scot," "I am Scottish" and "I am Scots," with "I am Scotch" outnumbering the others.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Perceptions of Scotch-Irish Identity in the US

Hallo!

Not that it is relevant, but I did not learn the Scotch tape and Scotch whiskey versus Scots thing until the 1970's. And another branch of my wife's family are Lowlanders.
And having lived briefly in Ireland and Northern Island, there were only those "Southenrers" and those "Northeners."

:)

The contract given to John Snyder of Philadelphia for 16,500 hats on July 30, 1858 reads:

"The material to be composed of four ounces of best Russia hare, carrated, and one and a half ounces of the best Scotch Coney, the stiffening of the best Campbell Shellac in solution of alcohol. Inside trimming to be of the best quality black jappaned leather, three inches deep, sewed to, but not through the Hat, a double row of stitching of the best black silk instead of binding around the edge of the brim."

Curt

[Crockett]

Re: Perceptions of Scotch-Irish Identity in the US

Perhaps this will shed some light on the subject. If anyone lives in Appalachia and has an interest in their Ulster-Scot ancestry and the correlation to this ancestry and their present dialect I urge you to look up the essays of Michael Montgomery. He seems to have a more firm grasp on the similarities between the dialect/word usage, and grammar found in Appalachia to that which was carried over by our Ulster-Scot ancestors. Of the lists he has compiled I find many words and grammatical styles present in my own dialect which he traces directly to those who were Ulster-Scots. He shoots down the notion that we have an Elizabethan, Shakespearean, or Chaucerian influence in our dialect. Though there is some, much of the influence is Ulster-Scot. How many of you still say "Used to could," "Might could," "Might should," or "Used to did?" Do you say "Anymore it's getting harder and harder to find work," or " I done told you to cut that racket out?" How about "Who all went?" "Where all are you going?" Just a few examples that he has found


By Prof. Michael Montgomery (copyright of the author)

« How Scotch-Irish is your English? | Scotch-Irish pronunciation »

Despite lively debates on some issues, a number of widely held ideas about the Scotch-Irish are genuine misconceptions. Among these is that they represent a mixture or interbreeding of Scottish and Irish populations in Ulster. In fact, these groups usually remained in separate communities in Ireland, though they often lived close to and worked alongside one another. A second misconception is that the Scots who came to Ulster were outcasts—deportees, criminals, and ne'er-do-wells. In fact, the vast majority were driven by economic pressures and the lure of long-term leases on good land, not by political or legal expulsion. They came because land was available on good terms, and they intended to stay. Most of their descendants did, and it is they who constitute the bulk of the present Protestant population there, especially in Antrim, Down, Londonderry, and east Donegal.17

A third misconception is the view that the term "Scotch-Irish" is a 19th-century creation of Americans having Ulster ancestry who wanted to distinguish their heritage from that of the Catholic Irish, who were coming en masse to the U.S., particularly as a result of the Great Potato Famine of the 1840s. The term had been used, at least by outsiders (e.g. Anglican clergymen Jonathan Boucher and Charles Woodmason) in the 18th century. although it is not clear to what extent Ulster emigrants used it for themselves.18 At least one well-informed scholar believes that, when arriving in North America, they most likely would have labeled their ancestry as simply "Irish."19

The consensus on the Scotch-Irish migration to America appears to be 1) that at least 150,000 people left Ulster for North America in the six decades preceding the American Revolution 20; 2) that they were overwhelmingly Presbyterian (as many as ten percent of the migrants were Catholic Irish and at least as many were probably Anglicans of English ancestry; smaller numbers of Baptists, Quakers, Huguenots, and other groups came); 3) that the great majority of these were of Scottish ancestry and tradition (whose forebears had migrated from Scotland one to four generations earlier in the previous century); and 4) that they left primarily for economic reasons. Most Ulster emigrants to North America had never owned land or enjoyed the status or security this afforded. Beginning around 1717 rents in Ulster were significantly raised (or "racked") as leases expired, crop failures brought scarcities of food, and downturns in trade (especially with linen, whose manufacture was the principal cottage industry) occurred, only to reoccur with unnerving frequency in succeeding decades. These factors tipped the balance for countless individuals who, though no doubt strongly attached to their native soil and communities, made the usually irrevocable decision to emigrate. The same factors affected all of Ireland in the 19th century, especially during the potato famine, as a result of which a million people left the Emerald Isle in the 1840s alone.21

Joe Mode

[Hoosier Yank]

Re: Perceptions of Scotch-Irish Identity in the US

As a young boy I remember my great-grandmother telling me about her grandmother Amelia (nee Campbell) Hendrickson. She told me that Amelia and her family came over in 1843 from County Antrim, Ireland. She then said, “We’re lace curtain Irish not that shanty Irish!”

[flattop32355]

Re: Perceptions of Scotch-Irish Identity in the US

In the book "Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America", the author indicates early on that most of those we now consider Scot derive much of their heritage from folk who crossed from Ireland to present day Scotland, and who either defeated the locals or overwhelmed them with intermarriage. So, along those lines, most Scots could be said to be Irish.

That said, it's been my understanding that the Scots-Irish are those (mostly lowlander) Scots that the English sent to Ireland to kick the Irish out of Northern Ireland. The Irish, none too pleased, tried to kick them back, though unsuccessfully. Once things had settled down (a relative term for that place), the English rewarded them by sending them elsewhere. Mr. Montgomery's work appears to disagree with that understanding.

As with most such things, it cannot be narrowly defined. At best, we Scots-Irish kept our native cussedness and dislike/distrust of outsiders and distant government. The isolation of the Appalachian Mountains called as much for its ability to stay hidden away and left alone as it did for its similarity to "home".