Need Gunsmithing Advice

[colorsgt26nc]

I have an Armi Sport Enfield that has a problem with the way the hammer falls on the nipple. It appears that the hole on the lockplate sits about 1/8 inch too far back. You can see in the attached photos that the lip on the hammer just slips by the nipple, but if a cap is placed on the nipple, the hammer will not sit properly. You can also see from the photos that, when disassembled and the hammer is properly placed over the nipple, the hole from the lockplate is out of line. I ordered one of the lockplates from Blockade Runner because they are supposed to drop in on an Armi Sport. Well, that lockplate was exactly the same as the first one. I don't know if I should buy a replacement hammer and see how that fits. I'm not really sure what to try next and would welcome any advice.

[BobRoeder]

Re: Need Gunsmithing Advice

Carlton,

You'll probably get better advice from someone else, but I'm wondering if this is how the lock and barrel fit when you obtained the gun?

For what it is worth, to me it looks like there is an issue with how the breech of the gun sits in the barrel channel which is affecting how the curl/snail of the drum (where the cone/nipple is screwed into) fits into the curve of the lock at the point on the edge above he date. There seems to be a space between the drum and the lock plate at this point. And, the tang of the barrel appears to be a bit high (doesn't seem to fit flush with the stock). Maybe if the drum and curl fit tighter into the curve of the lock it would bring the cone/nipple down and back so it fits more toward the center of the striking surface of the hammer. Does the barrel tang seem to fit low or flush on one side (away from the lock) and high on the lock side????

I guess what I'm trying to say, instead of trying to bring the hammer forward, is it possible to bring the barrel back a bit???

Just some thoughts.

[50th VA Corporal]

Re: Need Gunsmithing Advice

For what it is worth I thought I had the same problem. I have a three year old Todd Watts defarbed Armisport and recently replaced the lockplate with one of the new BRI models. I had the entire musket apart this winter giving it it's "annual"; changed out the mechinisims from the old lockplate into the new one, and reassembled the musket.

At that point I had noticed the same misalignment between the cone and the center of the hammer. It was resolved by re-seating the barrel as there was, indeed, enough slop in the barrel tang route that I had assembled it too far forward. I just loosened up the screws and pushed the barrel back and it took care of the misalignment.

I was surprised that there was that much lateral play between the barrel tang and the route it nested in.

Hope this helps.

Jas. T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal

[Todd Watts]

Re: Need Gunsmithing Advice

I have seen this same mis-match recently in some off-the shelf Armis. The plates we are selling at Blockade Runnr are exactly machine-copied from a recent (past 6 mos or so) Armi plate and from what I have seen when using them they are indeed "drop-in" just about every time. I had 1 that the hammer did this on but when I held the new plate agains the one that came off the gun I could see no differences. To remedy that one, I heated the nose of the hammer and bent it slightly forward. I have also been known to take a smal grinding wheel on a Dremel and hawg-out the hammer's recess ring enough to allow the hammer to fit over the cap. I recognize that particular plate. I was quite pleased with the markings on that one considering I had to hand-stamp each part of it. My TOWER stamp is a rather crude one that won't fit my press so to strike it I have to heat the plate in that spot to softe it and then quickly place the stamp and hit it before the heat gets through my glove to sear my tasty juices in my hand. It is rare that I get the TOWER stamp so uniform.

[GPM]

Re: Need Gunsmithing Advice

"I guess what I'm trying to say, instead of trying to bring the hammer forward, is it possible to bring the barrel back a bit???"

You would probably end up with a gap between the front of the bolster and the stock . Does it fire O.K as is ?

[colorsgt26nc]

Re: Need Gunsmithing Advice

Bob,
If the barrel went back anymore, it would require the lockplate to go back, as well. Where the barrel (below the cone) meets the lockplate is pretty flush.

James,
I disassembled and reassembled the gun this morning and got everything as snug as possible and it didn't alleviate the problem.

Todd,
One always recognizes ones children. I'm particularly fond of the plate, as well, and I'm glad that replacing it is not part of the solution.
Would you mind coming by the house and bending the hammer for me? It's only a 9 hour drive, and you'd get to see some lovely parts of Georgia and South Carolina on the way. A fellow from CA whose gun you did is sending me a Colt heavy hammer. I'll try that and see if it changes anything with the alignment. If not, I'll be trying to figure out how to heat up the current hammer. If that's the route, I'll be emailing you for advice.

Greg,
The gun misfires too often, which is why I started this thread. The aesthetics of it don't bother me.

Thanks for all your input. I'd welcome anymore comments.

[GPM]

Re: Need Gunsmithing Advice

Carlton, The barrel could be moved back without moving the lockplate, but it would require removing metal from the backside of the bolster where it meets the lockplate. Then you still have the gap in front of the bolster to deal with.
Another option would be to fit an original or non-italian reproduction hammer (such as from the rifle shoppe), they are a little larger than the italian hammers and may give just a little more space in the problem area. Just don't expect a drop in fit, it may require shimming or enlarging the tumbler shaft opening of the hammer, still this is an easier problem to overcome than moving the barrel back.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Need Gunsmithing Advice

Hallo!

IMHO, the possibilties have all been covered.

But first, I would add that the Italians have a history of mkaing product changes "within the product" over the years. Meaning juwst saying Armi Sport or EuroArms is a start, but they have tweaked, altered, and modified changes to their line several times over since first introduced in the 1980's. I find parts from the "latest generation" do not always fit an "older generation."

That being said, and depending upon your knowledge, skill, and tool sets...

1. Heat the hammer nose and bend it up to center the nose recess on the cone. (You may end up, maybe, needing to Dremel Tool alter the nose recess to a different angle in relationship to the come mouth. Or, filing the cone mouth at a slight angle to match the shifted angle of the hammer nose recess. OR, caps may detonate and not splinter as is.)

2. Swap put the hammer. Sending it to a dealer in parts, or visiting a partsman at an event for "trial and error" is a must. Just ordering a new hammer from anyone may solve, NOT solve, or worsen your problem.

3. Yes, the barrel can be reinletted in the breech and tang area and moved backwards. But that will take some metal removal behind the bolster as well as cosmetic camouflage wood work in front of it. (And your barrel will be tha tmuch shorter at the nose cap to muzzle end.)

4. The square "hole" for the tumbler in the hammer can have its dies filed back to shift it, and the resulting gap filled in by soldering a shim in place to close the new gap. (But, to my eye, in the picture, that would upset the symettery a great time and may noticeably, cosmetically, aesthetically annoying.)

Curt

[Todd Watts]

Re: Need Gunsmithing Advice

The Colt Special hammer is probably going to solve the problem because they do reach further out. When I have used them in the past I actually had to heat and bend their nose back a tad. The tumbler will fit loose in the hammer square. You can shim it with something (slivers of aluminum coke cans work) or better yet add 2 weld spots at 90 degree flats inside the hammer then file them just enought to start it. Then, chuck the hammer/tumbler/plate into a vice with smooth sides and crush-fit the hammer to the tumbler. To add color, you can heat it with a torch randomly to create purples and blues then apply some cold-blue over it as many times as you want. This will wear off faster than real color-casing colors or my own slat-bluing method, but can just as easily be re-done if it wears away.

ALWAYS heat the repro hammers like that before trying to bend them. They are cast steel and can break if not heated first before bending them (learned that one the hard way).

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Need Gunsmithing Advice

This is like reading a dispatch from the Planet of Idiots in some alternate universe.
First of all, aesthetics aside, a hammer that does not reach the cone is not acceptable and
probably not safe. Next, what you have found is that reproductions vary slightly and are
not interchangeable with each other. There are a variety of reasons for this, but mostly
it is sloppy work at the factory. They do these Enfields in runs of 100 units. That is why
there is a wait at times to get one, Armi Chiappa is waiting for at least 100 orders
before they do a run of a certain model. The castings vary slightly from lot to lot
especially over "generations" of arms. Look at an Enfield made ten years ago vs one
made more recently. The best you can say is they are (more or less) similar. Barrels
may or may not fit, locks, triggers, etc. And a lock plate that drops right in is wishful
thinking. Usually a little fitting is required. Bending and heating an investment cast
hammer is ill-advised...you are solving the wrong problem.

If the lock geometry worked out with the original factory plate that was in the Enfield,
then polish ENFIELD 1853 off the factory plate and have it engraved "TOWER" and "1862"
or whatever date you like. A trophy shop or jeweler can do this kind of job, too.
Just be sure you grind the whole plate evenly so you don't have a dip in the metal where
the lettering was.

Shims are useful to tighten up a loose hammer onto the arbor shaft. If you weld it on you
are going to have difficulty tearing the lock assembly down for the regular maintenance.
A Colt Special Model hammer can be worked into a very decent Enfield "heavy" hammer
but it is not line engraved like a commercial grade two TOWER P53 would have been. The
nose needs shortening and re-shaping, too. Looking at the images, the fit of the "drop in"
lock plate itself is not all that good is it? I see gaps all around the perimeter.

[j harold 587]

Re: Need Gunsmithing Advice

Could you releive the stock under the tang a bit? This would drop the nipple down. It may also be necessary releive under the rear of the barrel chanel and file the lock plate under the bolster. Since you only need the chickness of a cap plus a bit this may do the job without weakening, heating or shimming.

[colorsgt26nc]

Re: Need Gunsmithing Advice

Craig,

The lock plate in the photo is not the "drop in" but the original after being redone by Todd.

Your obedient idiot,

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Need Gunsmithing Advice

No, I'm probably the idiot, how did the lock geometry get that far off on it if it is the same lock plate?
Something is not right here...I'm gonna bet Todd Watts put your lock internals into another lock plate
that was already ground, polished and marked. If that's the same lock plate then I'm a hottentot...

[Todd Watts]

Re: Need Gunsmithing Advice

Eek! That is indeed a possibility. I have 2-3 guns apart on my benches at any time and I very well may have used another gun's plate. But I always do look at the guns before taking them out of the shop and make sure all is working well. I do not snap a cap, mind you, but I should have noticed that. I thought we were talking about one of the drop-in plates BRi sells.
Carlton, please e-mail me at libertytree@peoplepc.com so we can figure out what I need to do to get it snapping correctly.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Need Gunsmithing Advice

Speaking from experience it can happen fairly easily. These Italian made muskets have
variations over time and production runs. I have mixed up lock plates before and I will
bet that is what happened here.