Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

[Todd Watts]

Re: Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

Armi Sport's cones these days have an insanely small vent at the bottom, often with a burr left from the bit just barely breaking through. I don't know what their problem is. They certainly see these since they are virtually all this way. Last batch BRi got were all this way. I took several of the worst cases to my shop and driled them out larger. A small even vent is fine, expecially for live-fire, but these do tend to become clogged much faster. I have seen one that had been clogged by the broken-off top of the nipple-pick that got stuck in the tiny hole.

By contrast, Euroarms cones have nice even vents. BUT many times their threads are broken off! I see them all the time when I pull the cones out and see a thread or two just flat-gone off a brand-new cone. Couple this with the terrible habit their tang screws have of simply breaking at the top of the threads and I have no love for them either right now.

On both of these makers, I see no evidence of any adequate quality-control work being done or at least not intention of correcting their known issues. All they seem intent to do is sell, sell, sell.

[fatocat]

Re: Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

The previous posts have jogged my memory. I had to drill out the bottom hole in the last 2 Armi sport cones I've used and one of them came with the 1842. Also the 2 piece rammer for my 1842 is loose at the joint. I ordered another one and that one has become loose at the joint as well. It came loose after I accidently dropped the rammer on the high pile soft carpet in my house.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

The factory ramrods are basically are snapped together...just for show.

[Marine Mike]

Re: Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

I've got a 'me to' on the Armi Sport cones. My '55 came with a burr and the three replacements from Taylor were also burred. Two members of my unit each got a '42 in the last 6 months and same story.
So Todd, while we're at this home gun smithing, do you have a recommended drill size for live fire or is it measure your cone pick and go up 2 sizes? I think I used a #67.

Mike Stein

[Todd Watts]

Re: Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

I have liked the 1/16" bit size. It leaves a small enough hole to keep the hammer from re-cocking due to back-blast while affording very reliable ignition. The Armi vents these days I believe are measured in microns. The cones are by in larged unbelievably hard and will snap and or burn bits very quickly. I have come accross a method that works well if you do not have Cobalt bits. Place the cone nipple-down (threads up) in a shallow metal pan. Put water in the pan so that the cone is submerged except for the bottom of the threaded shank. Use a torch and heat the bottom of the shank dull to cherry red and then allow to cool a minute before knocking it over in the water. THe water has helped prevent the nipple from softening too bad if at all and ideally has prevented it from warpping. The heat you applied did however soften the vent so your bit can bite it.

[Blair]

Re: Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

Suggestion on my part,
Do not drill out the cone!
Go to your preferred parts vendor and order a cone with the larger base opening.
Aside from the original authentic thread pitch and dimensions of cones, most parts vender's offer the fine base opening that the shooters tend to prefer as well as the slightly larger base opening similar to that of original cones have/had in them.
It will be something you will have to specifically ask for in some cases. If they, the parts vendor, have no idea what your talking about... find another parts vendor.
Be sure to tell the parts vendor which model firearm you have and who the maker is so that you can get the correct thread pitch and diameter cone for that makers firearm. They are not all interchangeable!
That is to say "if" you know who the maker of the firearm is after de farbing. In that case, it is best if you carry the firearm with you when you go looking for a replacement cone. This includes any and all other parts you may need for that firearm. They are not all interchangeable!
Just a suggestion on my part. Be an informed consumer.

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

I noticed on my Armisport 42 that the hammer does not fall on the cone correctly, It does not come down over the center. I am not sure what caused this, bent somehow. The Hammer and cone both appear straight to the eye when I broke it down. I have not yet used it at an event. It does set off the caps but they get mishapened by the hammer. Can I bend the Hammer somehow to correct this, I do not want to crack or break it. Any advise would be appreciated. I posted some pictures as I slowly let the hammer down and then its final resting place. It rubs the cone on the way down before it seats.

[Blair]

Re: Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

Pete,

I would suggest placing a very thin wood shim under the lock plate where the rear lock screw comes through the stock.
This will move the enter lock plate outward and away from the cone/nipple a small amount. If this works for you, you can glue the wood in place. Don't over tighten the side lock screws.

Next step would be to disassemble the lock.
Remove the tumbler from the hammer and re set the hammer to the tumbler applying more pressure to the bottom of the hammer hole as you press it back onto the tumbler. This may position the nose of the hammer slightly farther outward of the cone/nipple seat.
Both methods are preferable to trying to bend the hammer.
I hope you find this helpful,

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

Agree, very common (too common) problem w/ Italian made repros--even the 1842s. Blair is giving very sound
advice to correct this piece of improper lock geometry. There are other alternatives, but this is something that
about anyone could do without special tools, etc.

I would say this (hammer not centered on cone) is probably something you could expect to encounter on about
30% to 50% of repros, at least those I have had a chance to inspect NIB. Others develop the problem with wear
and shrinkage of the wood around the lock mortise. This is one reason not to remove the lock assy every time
you clean the weapon. Additionally, the correct stock finishing with boiled linseed oil helps provide a shield
against moisture. Metal wearing on wood makes for imperfect seating of the lock. As Blair states, avoid over tightening
the lock plate screws...which in addition to exacerbating the lock geometry problems can also bind the action.

The cone thread size on the Armi Sport is 8 x 1 mm. Regqtm sells a stainless cone with a "reenactor" as well
as a "live fire" sized vent. The "reeanctor" vent being slightly larger. The nipple (part of the cone above the square)
are also tapered to better hold the cap in place when priming. $5 or $6 piece that can make a huge difference in the
reliable ignition of the charge.

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

Gents, I appreciate the advise and information. I will give the shim a try first and go from there. I will let you know how it works out.

[GPM]

Re: Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

Another way to move the hammer outboard would be to shim between the tumbler shaft shoulder and the hammer. I've used steel washers filed square on the inside to fit the shaft. Once assembled it's hard to detect. It does require more work than the method already mentioned, the shim must be a close fit to the shaft or it could bind the hammer against the lockplate face. Just another option if the previous one causes problems with the lockplate flushness to the stock or the bolster.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

Hallo!

Just to pile on....

You can also experiment with laying wood shims on the upper portion of the lockplate mortise or recess. These will kick the top of the lockplate to the outside, shifting the position of the hammer to the outside allowing a better centering of the hamemr nose on the cone.

And, sometimes the "hole" for the tumbler in the lockplate is too large, allowing the hammer to shift the lockplate up and down. If there is play or slop in teh way the tumbler shaft comes through the lock plate, you can shim it to prevent the 'wobble" of the hammer to and fro. I you can move the hammer sideways enough to shift the nose on the cone, the lockplate tumbler 'hole" and/or the square "hole" in the hammer may be off.

As Herr Craig has shared, I see this alot on older guns that have been refinished, and that the owners were always keen on cranking down the lockplate screws. Over time, the stock wood can become compressed and compressed, and as the lock screws are increasingly tightened and tightened down, the top of the lockplate gets cocked inward shifting the hammer nose inward and "inwarder."

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

Sleeve the arbor shaft if the lock plate has too large of an opening, in other words. I usually cut up a tin can for that purpose, but
it depends on the thickness required. I see that more in "put togethers" where the weapon is made up of disassociated parts.
I think that is one of the things you can do yourself if you are somewhat handy. Otherwise, send it to Lodgewood Mfg or a gunsmith
who does that kind of work. The job itself is not too bad or too difficult but you have to (obviously) tear down the lock and remove
the hammer. You will need a mainspring vise, etc. Some fellows balk at that kind of project but it is probably a good practice
to tear down your lock at the end of each campaign season, remove any dirt, polish off any burrs, etc. And of course, don't over-
tighten the lock plate screws when you put it back in.

You can also put metal shims in the square at the base of the hammer where it goes onto the arbor shaft to accomplish a slight move outward.
Or what we call "a hammer job." It is also done to take the slop out of a loose hammer. Actually there are small variations in the hammers
and arbor shafts, and when you are replacing parts they sometimes require this type of fitting.

However, a few shims in the lock mortise is the easiest solution. Centered contact of the hammer to the cone is really a safety feature
if you think about it. An off center strike risks greater fragmentation hazard w/ the percussion cap.

[dirtyshirt]

Re: Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

I was at a local event recently and there were a couple guys there with two monstrosity "'42s" I don't know where these things came from. They were huge for one, the bolster was probably 25% larger than my old (12yr old) Armisport. The Barrel bands were wrong and over sized, the side lock wasn't straight, and all the metal looked like it was chromed. Has anyone else seen these and does anyone know where they're coming from?

[ndnchf]

Re: Problems with 1842 Reproductions?

Has anyone else seen these and does anyone know where they're coming from?

Might be one of these:
http://www.veteranarms.com/VALNov09/M1842.html