Loose fitting bayonet

[Tom Dodson]

About 2 years ago I purchased a defarbed, armory bright Enfield from Terry Schultz of Company Quartermaster. I attempted to purchase one from BRI but they were on back order for an unknown period of time. The only problem, other than a sliver of wood that split off on the edge of the rammer channel, is the bayonet, also purchased from Terry, is way too loose. It rattles and bangs while marching with fixed bayonet. I purchased a fit it yourself bayonet on sale from BRI and some more work with a rat tail file should fix the problem. It is so tight now the bayonet will only go part way on the barrel. I am taking it slow as I do not want another loose bayonet.
I was just wondering if this is typical of the Armi Sport or a product of the defarbing. A had a blued Armi Sport for several years, which I regrettably sold during my first retirement sale and did not have the problem with that musket.
Tom Dodson

[fahnenschmied]

Re: Loose fitting bayonet

Most likely it is a product of the bayonet being made in India. There is much variance in the things, and they have to accomodate both productions of Enfields in Italy, which are not the same at the muzzle.

[Dreamer42]

Re: Loose fitting bayonet

Tom,
Would it be possible to braze a bit of brass along the inside of the socket and file (dremmel) to fit? This would help make it more snug, and it would not show.

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42
9th Texas

[Tom Dodson]

Re: Loose fitting bayonet

Jay,
I bought a new on sale bayonet from BR that will require removing metal from the inside of the socket to fit as it is too tight. I am using a file and taking it slow and easy.
I have an original Enfield bayonet that was a very loose fit also on this musket. I was just wondering if in removing the bluing during the "defarb" process some metal was removed from the barrel. The barrel was almost clogged solid with bluing and assorted crud when I received the musket.
I was just curious if anyone had ever come across a similar problem. No big deal, just curious.
Thanks,
Tom Dodson

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Loose fitting bayonet

Hallo!

Blueing itself adds a "micro" layer to the surface of the metal.

However, as with another parts, the BSAT made P1853 3rd Model Enfield were not to made to interchagengeable standards. When encountering original bayonets for these arms, because the barrels will vary, so do the bayonets. NUG, to the point of near "always," one does not find the bayonet that was originally made for THAT gun- just the luck-of-the-draw and hope that a bayonet will fit that particualr gun.
(Historically, at times, the bayonets were also sometimes number stamped to aid in keeping gun with its bayonet...)

IMHO, when shopping for repro bayonets, the older generation Italian ones have less size variation that the Pakistani and Indian copies that can vary wildly. But, they can be hard to find these daze. I prefer to shop for undersized bayonets that can have their inner socket sandpapered or even Dremel-tooled to fit (often times with bayonet stud slots having to be filed to match the stud/front sight of the particular gun.

Curt

[Blair]

Re: Loose fitting bayonet

Tom,

Usually speaking, none of the barrel is removed during bayonet fitting. At least not within any of my experience. True, some may choose to modify the front sight height, width, length, etc., when fitting an original bayonet. But, when fitting a repro bayonet, in most cases it is best to modify the bore/slots of the bayonet's socket than to modify the outside of the barrel.
As to the barrel being "almost clogged solid with bluing and associated crud"... all I can say to this is that the original owner never bothered to clean the bore, and the person doing the re blue couldn't be bothered with doing it, or simply never checked it. This can happen with "rust bluing" when only the outside of the barrel is being blued. However, it is not the proses of the act of bluing that is the cause of this. This is most likely a direct result of slovenly maintenance practices of the original owner of the firearm.
I always check the bore of any firearm I receive. If it is dirty... depending on how dirty... the owner is charged for the cleaning according to the amount of dirt before any work begins on the weapon.

[David Fox]

Re: Loose fitting bayonet

A lazy man's method which has worked for me for "tightening" a too loose bayonet is to goop a tad of apoxy on the inside of the socket then dress this down with a round tail file to fit.

[Tom Dodson]

Re: Loose fitting bayonet

Thanks to all for your input. As to the barrel being clogged with debris being the fault of the previous owner, this Enfield was purchased new from a company whose sole business is the defarbing and sale of Enfields. It just looked to me that it could have been a result of the barrel being soaked in a vat or some such procedure. I would never handle any firearm, be it new, used, modern or blackpowder without first checking the bore and the entire weapon. I am a firm believer in the old adage of there being no such thing as an unloaded firearm.
I have found a too tight bayonet and will go the route of fitting it.
Thanks again,
Tom Dodson

[Blair]

Re: Loose fitting bayonet

Tom,

Sorry, I must have completely misunderstood what you meant by, "The barrel was almost clogged solid with bluing and assorted crud when I received the musket."
Please accept my apologies,

[Tom Dodson]

Re: Loose fitting bayonet

Blair,
The statement was correct. I was surprised however to find a new, "defarbed" musket (or any new musket for that matter) in that condition fresh out of the box. The point was I was just wondering if all the bluing residue and gunk in the barrel was a result of the barrel possibly having been turned on a lathe or some such procedure to remove the bluing and all modern markings resulting in a smaller that normal barrel diameter.
No problem and no need for any apology.
Tom Dodson

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Loose fitting bayonet

There is no "gunk" in the barrel of an unfired NIB repro Enfield. Terry Schultz (Company Quartermaster) uses a wire wheel
to remove the bluing and get that mirror like finish he puts on many of his de-farbs. They are not turned on a lathe. If
there is gunk in the barrel, then the musket has been used by someone and not cleaned. De-farbing the weapon does not
affect anything found the inside of the barrel.

The bayonet does not fit because they are shade tree produced, soft metal imported garbage for the most part. Fitting a repro bayonet is
probably my least favorite part of any Civil War musket project, which fortunately I will never have to do again. You have gotten some good
advice on what to do about it, or you can live with it like 90% of the guys do. Ill-fitting bayonets are more common than uncommon. It
would be extremely unlikely that anything done during defarbing would affect the circumference of the barrel. The finish is a few
thousandths of an inch, tops.

[Tom Dodson]

Re: Loose fitting bayonet

Mr. Barry,
I am glad to hear that the gunk in my barrel was my imagination. If what you say is true then I was sold a used musket as new. I am not in the habit of making up fabrications and I assure you the barrel was clogged with bluing and other "gunk" for lack of a better word.
It was in an Armi Sport box when I received it from Company Quartermaster Company Quartermaster. It was never fired by me before I discovered the "stuff" in the barrel.
Tom Dodson

[Tom Dodson]

Re: Loose fitting bayonet

Again for Mr. Barry,
I can live with an ill fitting bayonet as I have done for over a year now. I previously had a new Armi Sport Enfield. It was un-defarbed and a bayonet from Terry fit perfectly. Hence my question about the loose fit on the defarbed Enfield. I am not in the business so I didn't think a couple of questions about the process were out of order. I have no problem with any of that.
I do have a problem when someone says I am lying about something. I assure you that the Enfield in question did have bluing residue in the barrel clogging it to the point that the rammer, even the small end, would not pass through. Some boiling water, a worm and later a bore brush and solvent solved the issue and I have never had a problem with the musket since. As I said, the Enfield was in the Armi Sport box and was purchased directly from Company Quartermaster. I had not fired it before discovering the stuff in the barrel. As "There is no "gunk" in the barrel of an unfired NIB repro Enfield" I am totally mystified.
I realize you are an expert in the field and know more than I ever expect or hope to learn about Enfields and other CW weaponry both new and repro, I certainly take your word on the process of defarbing. That does not, however, give you the right or any cause to call me a liar.
Tom Dodson

[Blair]

Re: Loose fitting bayonet

Tom,

If I may interject something here,
I misunderstood what you were saying regarding the crud you found in the bore as being caused by a gun that was not cleaned. Another words, a used gun. This is the only way I know of that could cause this much crud to build up.
I do not know of any bluing procedure that could be the cause of this kind of build up in the bore. In fact, "Hot Bluing" (non authentic to the preiod) would boil most of this crud out of the bore. At a temerature in excess of 300 degrees. And these corrosive compounds from the fowling may contaminate the bluing salts damaging the finished product.
I don't think anyone here is accusing you of fabricating a falsehood. I maybe wrong, but, if I understand what you are being told here, it is that bluing is not the cause of this kind of build up.

[Tom Dodson]

Re: Loose fitting bayonet

I should not have posted what I thought was an innocent question. I understand repro bayonets have little if any quality control but we got off on this other subject.
Let me be as clear as I know how to be. The stuff I removed from the inside of the barrel was blue. It had every appearance of being the deep color bluing that is used on repro Enfields. It is my contention that at some point during the removal of the bluing during the "defarb", some of the substance found it's way into the barrel. It was hardened for whatever reason. The weapon showed no signs of ever having been fired. I do not know if they are proofed at any point during the manufacture process or not. Regardless, what I cleaned out of the barrel was not residue from having been fired. It was a deep color blue and almost the consistency of hardened paint.
I do not pretend to have answers. I only know what I cleaned from the inside of a new musket. It was purchased directly from Company Quartermaster. I am passing no judgment on Terry or his work. I never contacted him about the matter and am regretful that I am having to go into such detail now. I understand that in all facets of life sh/t happens. I would recommend Terry and Company Quartermaster to anyone.
My issue is someone telling me that: "There is no "gunk" in the barrel of an unfired NIB repro Enfield". Whether it was removed bluing or some other material, there was most certainly, for lack of a better word, "gunk" in the barrel of this NIB repro Enfield. It was built up to such a degree that not even the small end of the rammer would pass through. I respect Mr. Barry's knowledge of new and reproduction firearms as well as his standing in the living history community. He is, however, wrong in this case.
I hope this concludes the matter and I am reminded of why I so seldom post on this forum.
Tom Dodson