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Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

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  • Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

    I was going to respond to an eariler post on the US 1861 and possible ways to better affect
    a more authentic "weight" and feel to the Italian reproduction version--specifically
    the removal of excess wood from the stock. I think some discussion of what constitutes
    all the excess weight is in order.

    The three main components of a musket are the Lock, Stock & Barrel. The only
    repro part which is not significantly heavier than an original weapon of the same type is the lock.
    Taking the US 1861 as an example, the target weight of an original was 8 3/4 lbs.
    The Italian made reproductions are at least a pound heavier than that, the Euroarms
    more than a pound. What accounts for all the excess weight? Obviously the stock
    and barrel. The "lawyers" barrels are heavier than originals, both thicker and larger at several
    points and the stock is made larger (and is somewhat misshapen) to accomodate the beefier
    barrel.

    The oversized barrel accounts for about half the excess weight and there is not
    much that can be done about it, hence we concentrate on removing excess wood
    from the stock. Part of the problem with the weight of the stock, aside from
    proportions, is that the European walnut is denser and heavier than American walnut
    wood. The walnut used for US gunstocks in the 1860s was about 2.8 lbs per
    board foot, and European walnut is around 4.0 lbs per board foot.

    The point being, even when you remove wood to better reflect the contours of the
    original, not enough excess weight wood can be removed to approach the original and
    still maintain the proportions and balance of the weapon. The walnut used is just
    denser and heavier. In the end the result is that the reproduction is usually going to be
    heavier than the original it is attempting to copy, and not too much can be done about it.
    Craig L Barry
    Editor, The Watchdog, a non-profit 501[c]3
    Co-author (with David Burt) Suppliers to the Confederacy
    Author, The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy
    Member, Company of Military Historians

  • #2
    Re: Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

    Hallo!

    Yup...

    Curt
    Curt Schmidt
    In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

    -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
    -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
    -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
    -Vastly Ignorant
    -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

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    • #3
      Re: Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

      I would think then there would be a market for replacement stocks made of good ol' American Black Walnut. I suppose the custom inletting for all the variations in size of parts of the different makes of the same model rifle-musket would render this impractical.

      The company I work for finds it cost-effective to ship American cherry wood to Asia for processing which returns to the US as finished goods. (Asian cherry or rubberwood just ain't the same for our needs.) Have any of the European manufacturers ever been approached with the same concept? I wonder how much it would increase prices?

      Paul McKee

      Paul McKee
      Paul McKee

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      • #4
        Re: Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

        The thing about those oversized barrels is it leaves an oversized breech area. When you skinny-down the wrist of the stock, the end result is a musket with incongruous lines from buttstock to wrist to breech.

        There is only so much that can be done with an oversized barrel as the starting point.
        John Wickett
        Former Carpetbagger
        Administrator (We got rules here! Be Nice - Sign Your Name - No Farbisms)

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        • #5
          Re: Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

          Hallo!

          Correct...

          In brief and to over simplify...

          "Oversized" furnture or parts, and parts made not to be interchangeable with orignal parts, require their own stocks. One can fiddle and faddle only so much before one
          upsets the apple cart.

          On the other end of the spectrum, there are the reproductions (aka "customs" or "custom-builts") that are exact/exacting reproductions of orignal arms using either original parts or repro parts that were made to be interchangeable. Dunlop stocks and formerly stocks made by Steve Jensco and others of American Black Walnut with original and repro-original parts do not have a weigth, bulk, size, or part variation problem compared to the Italian reproductions.

          Curt
          Curt Schmidt
          In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

          -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
          -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
          -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
          -Vastly Ignorant
          -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

            Both of my rifles are defarbed, the 61 Springfield was done by John Zimmerman. My 53 Enfield was done at Loyalist Arms, there is a very noticeable difference in weight between the two. The Enfield is much lighter than the Springfield, I have held my Enfield in one hand and someone else's Enfield in the other and still can tell a big difference.
            [B]Derrick Pugh

            Western Independent Grays
            S.C.A.R.[/B]


            "Yaller-hammer, Alabama, flicker, flicker, flicker,"
            I felt sorry for the yellow-hammer Alabamians,
            they looked so hacked, and answered back
            never a word." ~Sam Watkins

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

              One of the primary reasons for modern repro firearms being heavy is the simple fact that patterns wear out.
              What is done to replace those patterns is not to make a new pattern from scratch, but to pull one off the last objects made off of the assembly line and create/turn that into a pattern.
              This approach to replacing patterns effects the stocks most because they are usually unfinished, rough out stocks used to create an new pattern.

              Various hardwoods can and do have very different densities. These can vary depending on their being Kiln dried or Air dried.
              Age of the wood also effects the varying densities. "Who would had thought?"
              All modern woods, Hard or otherwise are kiln dried. Does this mean the metal part may not also be somewhat oversized? Of course, it does not!
              Knowing the various densities of hard woods available in North American might be able to help.
              What came out of Europe and England maybe quite different!

              Blame the excess weight on what ever you wish... the excess weight can be blamed on the fact that reenacters don’t want to pay the price to make their guns right!
              Stripping the stock and oiling the abominations the Italians call a stock, just don't seem to quite cut it!
              How many can varify this?
              Last edited by Blair; 08-19-2010, 09:03 PM.

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              • #8
                Re: Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

                In the late '80s, there was a run of muskets made by EuroArms that were significantly heavier than their typical production. The reason? The barrels were made from recycled tank steel. Yes, I own one of those extra-heavy Enfields and my arms pay dearly.

                I'd also like to add that if anyone has ever done the manual of arms with an original, you'll know that originals are a much more balanced and fine tuned item than any repro, no matter the weight or quality of defarbing. Sooner or later I'm probably just gonna use an original musket and be done with it all! haha :tounge_sm
                Last edited by PieBoy96; 08-20-2010, 10:53 AM.
                Paul Boccadoro
                Liberty Rifles

                “Costumes are just lies that you wear.” –Stephen Colbert

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                • #9
                  Re: Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

                  Just curious,
                  But why would "recycled tank steel" be any heavier than the carbon steels barrels they (the Italians) normally use?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

                    I was sort of wondering that--aren't a pound a feathers about the same as a pound of rocks?
                    Why would recycled tank steel be any heavier than any other steel? This is the first time I have
                    heard that one about recycling tanks. What would the Italians be doing with tanks to begin with?
                    The Euroarms are categorically heavier across the product line. The Armi Sport P-53 and US 1842s are fairly
                    close to an original in weight. However their US 1861 is not nearly as proportional and much heavier. Go
                    figure.

                    As far as the manufacturers willingness to improve their products, IIRC Geoff Walden shared the various
                    historical inaccuracies of the Euroarms P53 with (then) owner Paolo Amali. He planned to get right on it
                    and I think that was 1993. At any rate the manufacturers show about as much interest in improving
                    their existing products as they do in introducing new products like a decent repro M-54 Lorenz. The
                    last "new" musket from an Italian maker was the Armi Sport US 1842 back in 1996. I think it came
                    just after Pedersoli introduced their 1816 conversion, or about the same time.

                    Curt and Blair are right that "custom" is the way to go, but the expense is such that it is often more
                    economical to get original parts and build a put together, which is a subject for another day...
                    Last edited by Craig L Barry; 08-21-2010, 05:24 PM.
                    Craig L Barry
                    Editor, The Watchdog, a non-profit 501[c]3
                    Co-author (with David Burt) Suppliers to the Confederacy
                    Author, The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy
                    Member, Company of Military Historians

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

                      I think its the depleted uranium that makes it heavier.
                      ;)
                      John Wickett
                      Former Carpetbagger
                      Administrator (We got rules here! Be Nice - Sign Your Name - No Farbisms)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

                        Originally posted by Craig L Barry View Post
                        I was sort of wondering that--aren't a pound a feathers about the same as a pound of rocks?
                        Why would recycled tank steel be any heavier than any other steel? This is the first time I have
                        heard that one about recycling tanks. What would the Italians be doing with tanks to begin with?...
                        Post WWII tank steel was rolled homogeneous armor - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolled_homogeneous_armour

                        Following WWII the Italian Army was equipped with a variety of US made tanks such as the M47 and the M60 series both of which were constructed of rolled homogeneous armor which could very well be the source of the "tank steel". Yes, it would be heavier than the steel you normal see on Italian muskets.
                        Last edited by JimKindred; 08-21-2010, 10:27 PM.
                        Jim Kindred

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                        • #13
                          Re: Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

                          To annoyingly answer the original question (why are most repop muskets heavier than originals) with a question: why are pro football linemen heavier than running backs? Blazingly obvious answer: there's just so much more to them. As to why they are made that way, it's because their weight must serve corporate purposes, some perhaps just perceived, some real. As to muskets, many of the physical reasons have been well catalogued in this tread. Perhaps an understanding of the 'why' this is so is aided by recognizing the fact that, except arguably for a run of British production in the 1960s and 70s and perhaps others, what we're dealing with are replicas, not reproductions. The producers more or less replicate the original piece that inspires them. These weapons are, alas, never intended to be reproductions of their inspirations. Once that corporate decision was made by some suits in a board room, we're left with discussing the degree...usually more, rarely less...that the consequential inprecision has resulted in products usually clunkier, lacking refinements, and otherwise straying from the originals they portray. These pieces were never intended to be otherwise, certainly never intended to be parts-interchangable, and there is no particularly pressing economic reason for the corporations to rethink their original decisions: for their business purposes, chiefly economics, vaguely close is close enough. And so the Good Lord created the likes of Todd Watts and John Zimmerman. They can't possibly close the gap twixt original and replica, but they can make that difference less egregious.
                          Last edited by David Fox; 08-22-2010, 08:09 AM.
                          David Fox

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                          • #14
                            Re: Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

                            Not to dumb it down but, on a 160 year old musket, how much lost weight could be due to handling, rust, cleaning and dehydration of wood ? How much weight is lost when a bore is shot smooth over an extended period of time? I'm sure it adds up. Does red brass way more than yellow brass?
                            Just sayin'
                            R.G.Eckel
                            1st Arkansas (pending)
                            2nd South Carolina Co. I (retired)
                            Last edited by JimKindred; 08-22-2010, 08:45 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Why are the repro muskets so heavy?

                              Back to the original question of why are the repro muskets so heavy? Lawyers
                              Jim Kindred

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