Scavenging the battlefield prevented by soiled clothing ?

[john duffer]

This is a serious question but still probably more suited for the sinks since modern references work about as well as period. I won’t be surprised or offended if Mods do away with it but, again, I don’t mean it as a joke. Every so often the sky blue pants for CS argument re-erupts and one of the negatives is “The dead always defecate in their pants.”. I’m not advocating sky blues but I am curious if this is true or one of those “They never went around in shirtsleeves.” things. I looked on the Internet but got wildly divergent answers and none from reliable sources. Logic suggests that it might depend on the individual’s bowel conditions at the moment, with very loose stools I can see it, with more solid I don’t see a large log exiting on it’s own. In most cases it seems drawers would contain things. Does anyone have any knowledge of this delicate subject? Note that I’m not arguing for blue trousers, I don’t approve of the battlefield as shopping mall theory. MacDougall says something to the effect of ‘they will have one hundred days of marching for every one of battle’.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Scavenging the battlefield prevented by soiled clothing ?

I wouldn’t think Catastalsis is possible absent involuntary electrical signals from a living, functioning neurological system ?

If the contents were being constrained in the lower rectum strictly by conscientious constriction of the anus....holding it in so to speak. Perhaps.

I have searched for primary period references and never witnessed the phenonmenon in modern times.....seems there is nothing inherently different about the physiological process of dying now than then.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[AndrewGrim]

Re: Scavenging the battlefield prevented by soiled clothing ?

So is there something to simulate those stains, or do they have to come naturally?

[Hank Trent]

Re: Scavenging the battlefield prevented by soiled clothing ?

Wrong species, but maybe relevant:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?28666-July-2010-Cover-Image-Submission&p=182041#post182041

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Blair]

Re: Scavenging the battlefield prevented by soiled clothing ?

Just curious, has anyone thought or bothered to check with Hospitals, Municipal or City Morgues or Funeral Homes?
Some of these deaths "may" not be as sudden and traumatic as one might expect to find on a Battlefield, but then again, some may.
Just a thought,

[Clyons]

Re: Scavenging the battlefield prevented by soiled clothing ?

As a funeral director/Embalmer and past Coroner I can attest to the fact that the dead do NOT always deficate. Without going in to too much detail it would depend on what was in the stomach at the time of death and how far the food had processed. The longer a person has been dead does sometimes allow the bladder to relax and they may urinate but that is not always either. I have been at the seen of many sudden and violent deaths and attended the Autopys of these same people and base my opinion on what I actually observed. Hope this helps.

Chuck Lyons
10th IL Infantry

[john duffer]

Re: Scavenging the battlefield prevented by soiled clothing ?

Bliar

I tried online but most were answers to Yahoo questions, et al, and the answers were all over the place. This thought just came up and I haven't made any serious reserach efforts. The only stat I saw, supposedly from an emergency room worker, was 1 in 10 with urination more likely than the other.

Hank

Note again I'm not advocating either side but might not the poor horse have ben dispatched mid evacuation. Also wrong species and not period, I've had a couple of kitties get hit by cars sans defecation.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Scavenging the battlefield prevented by soiled clothing ?

Peristolic action in the cecum - hind gut fermenter (epigaster) is not the same as humans....most of the time "we" have to push it out ..."voluntary constriction" under the best of circumstances.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[BobbyHughes]

Re: Scavenging the battlefield prevented by soiled clothing ?

Again, with the wrong species, but having witnessed two horses being put down, neither defecated or urinated at time of death. Also, having seen video, which i will not link to here, of deaths in the recent unpleaseantness, I have not seen any release of body fluids or wastes other than the point of entry/exit

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Scavenging the battlefield prevented by soiled clothing ?

There may be other physical barriers to looting the dead. It's one thing to take off shoes, boots, accouterments, and the like, but rigor mortis could complicate the process for coats and trousers for up to three days after death, at which point decomposition would probably have begun, especially since most battles occurred in warmer seasons. Add to that the ordinary condition of an infantryman's garments, as well as the number of wounds to the gut or lower extremities, and I can't imagine too many trouser swaps between victor and corpse.

That said, official policing of the battlefield to harvest ordnance is pretty well documented. An army lucky enough to overrun the enemy's camp or train would also have access to additional stores, including extra clothing, but not in great numbers relative to the size of the force in the field.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Scavenging the battlefield prevented by soiled clothing ?

Actually having seen real combat deaths (about 30 people killed or wounded in a suicide-vest bombing on Sep 23, 2006 in Iraq- I got there about 2 mins after it occurred), I can say from what I saw (and smelled) was that when a blast (perhaps like a cannon in period terms) rips someone in-half, the iron-smell of blood, burned flesh and feces is powerfuly repugnant in the air from disembowelment. (Gunshots depend on where someone was hit and the damage incurred.)

I saw people that had died from concussion of the blast, and they were still intact physically. Perhaps you could take clothes then off of the dead, but I don't think anyone would want them stained beyond minor cleaning.

Putting myself in a Civil War soldier's position, I wouldn't want to wear an absorbant uniform soiled with the blood, filth, and other fluids of a violent combat death. Perhaps scavenging cloth clothes from bodies happened in certain circumstances when fluids did not stain the clothes due to the nature of the fatal injury, but I would have to say this would be the exception rather than the rule and totally dependent upon circumstances if someone needed clothes etc. bad enough. This is just from what I've seen in real life combat.

Leather items that could have resisted stains are entirely another matter, though...

Sorry if this is too graphic, but I have some experience in this area.

Thanks- Johnny

[john duffer]

Re: Scavenging the battlefield prevented by soiled clothing ?

This is getting away from the original question but based on modern funerals and window mannequins I don’t see rigor mortis being much of a factor. Once past the soiled thing I think economics and opportunity probably outweigh all else . I don’t recall any CW references but a couple days ago reading on the Boer War I saw several references to the dead being left naked. These were all local populace, not British or Boer. It’s how bad do you need clothes plus access to the dead. If you lose you’ve probably withdrawn, if you win you could still be miles away when you pause or too busy to loot. So, you have to need clothing enough to overlook some unpleasantness and have unfettered access to the stricken. My opinion so far is if the soiled situation arose it would be ‘this guys a mess, let’s try the next one’.

[Edwin Carl Erwin]

Re: Scavenging the battlefield prevented by soiled clothing ?

Enter a search for "spontaneous defecation" on the Coroner Stories site: http://www.coronerstories.com/ to read the real poop on the subject.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Scavenging the battlefield prevented by soiled clothing ?

Hallo!

As with many things...

The danger is making universal pronoucements, or making instances "always" or "never."

Short answer, sometimes, violent death causes the loss of bowel and bladder control.
Just as high levels of stress such as before combat, in the moment of combat, and even after combat can cause loss of control among some of the living.

A parallel would be saying all men cry out or scream when they are shot by bullet or shell and are killed.

Improved psychological and psychiatric knowledge, understand, and treatment practices are now appearing in the Literature and with care-giver instruction and patient therapy- because what combat can do to some lads goes beyond the Hollywood John Wayne pop-culture about folks who "sh*t and p*ss themselves."

Curt

[joey12thga]

Re: Scavenging the battlefield prevented by soiled clothing ?

Why do they have to be dead to defecate? What if they were just wounded and did so and before they died. My Ol' Lady is an Emergency Room RN and she says that is way more common than them releasing their bowels after death at least from her POV. A lot happens internally and goes through one's mind when severly wounded.