Why did the Southern Man go to war?

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Why did the Southern Man go to war?

Patrick,
I respect your Senior Capstone, just not exactly what i learned and was taught in the schools I attended conducted by the Army. . But your study is well read, and I respect that, and would not dare dismiss it. The development of preparing a population for war is a study and an art. I am not nearly as studied in college history as many of you are. I mostly studied the development of warfare and Nation rebuilding in the schools I attended post college. I envy many of you for that. I agree with you as posted above, many were defending their homes. My attempt was to bring out the art of developing a Nation to buy into a war.

[Tkessen]

Re: Why did the Southern Man go to war?

"While that may be your opinion, it doesn't check out with the reality of why a lot of those men went to war. In Glathaar's book that I mentioned above, he throws out the statistic that 45% of those who enlisted into the Army of Nort. VA in 61 were from slaveholding families. The ranks of the boys of '61 were made up of people that identified with the institution of slavery, and if they did not directly benefit from it, many believed they would hurt if it was abolished. Southern intellectuals went to fair lengths to make sure that poor whites identified with the rich whites more than they did the slave pop.

This is not to say men enlisted ONLY because of slavery, I'm just saying that we can't continue to discount the fact the slavery was a driving factor in the reason men enlisted, when the facts simply say otherwise. The arguement of "johnny reb wanted to protect his home against the yankees" can't entirely apply to the men who joined up before the huge calls for volunteers went out. Also, I'm not trying to pass judgement on those men who did enlist to defend the institution. In it's historical context, defending slavery was understandable, as it was the system that kept the south existing...if someone in the US government proposed that as of noon today, no one was going to be allowed to use gasoline or diesel, you would probably do everything you could to make sure that did not come to pass. (not trying to start a political flame here, just using the a comparison. Our culture today is just as dependent on those resources as the antebellum south was on slavery, so I feel that it is a valid comparison.)"



Sir, I was not implying that slavery was not an issue in why Southerners fought. I was implying that the defense of one's homeland WAS a big reason for non-slaveholding Southerners to go to war. This also goes with States rights, even though they didn't own slaves, the idea of the Yankee government telling them whether or not they should own slaves or not just didn't fly with them. I do not believe that one reason can justify why the average Southerner went to war, but a meriad of things caused it.

Taylor Kessen
5th Ohio Light Artillery Battery

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: Why did the Southern Man go to war?

Why did the southern man go to war?

A big question, and you have got some good answers from some gutsy folk on this BB.

Let me add some links here that you might be interested in looking at to help on your research.

Look at what the Southern folk were being told in the time period leading up to, and during the Secession crisis:

http://civilwarcauses.org/commish.htm

http://civilwarcauses.org/polit.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Editors-Make-War-Newspapers-Secession/dp/0809327341/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295788194&sr=8-1-catcorr

We have to understand that what they believed, and were being told would do a lot to shape what their reasons to fight were. Even if YOU don’t believe the same thing today. (20/20 hindsight)

Lee White mentioned the problems going on in Texas, this should give you an idea on what Texas folk thought was going on:

http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/exhibits/civilwar/trouble.html

The following book has been mentioned, and it’s a good read on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/What-This-Cruel-Over-ebook/dp/B000OYF01Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2&s=digital-text&qid=1295788040&sr=1-1

This should top a lot of folks to read list, it’s a keeper for anyone’s library at home:

http://www.amazon.com/Reluctant-Rebels-Confederates-Joined-ebook/dp/B003U6Z2VI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2&s=digital-text&qid=1295788132&sr=1-1

I came to the conclusion a some time back that the slavery issue was the driving force behind the war. I have quotes to back me up, as they are an interesting source of info coming from individual soldiers. But, one must be careful to fall into the trap of believing every soldier believed this way.

One must remember that these come from a FEW, not ALL the soldiers:

“I am convinced the institution of slavery is now virtually destroyed & with it we lose the great object for which the Confederacy was made, and without which there never would have been a Confederacy”
Lt. O. C. Orange 19th Texas Infantry

“You came into our country with your army, avowedly for the purpose of subjugating free white men, women, and children, and not only intend to rule over them, but you make negroes your allies, and desire to place over us an inferior race, which we have raised from barbarism to its present position,
which is the highest ever attained by that race, in any country, in all time.”
General John B. Hood to General W. T. Sherman

"'your own countrymen and race' against the 'murder and arson, hanging and stealing' that were sure to accompany the 'liberation of the half-civilized cannibal.'"(p. 15 -- Pvt. Joseph Bruckmuller, 7 TX, Address delivered to other prisoners at Ft. Douglas Prison, Chicago, June 1862, Joseph Bruckmuller Notebook, Center for American History, University of Texas, Austin)

"if slavery is to be abolished then I take no more interest in our fight." Brig. Gen. Clement H. Stevens, AOT.

"There never was, in the history of the world...a more complete abandonment of a cause...than this proposition to free the negroes and make soldiers of them." Col. John J. Seibels, 6th Alabama Infantry.

"There never was, in the history of the world...a more complete abandonment of a cause...than this proposition to free the negroes and make soldiers of them." Col. John J. Seibels, 6th Alabama Infantry.

I do leave you with this thought from a hard core Confederate Soldier, S. T. Foster , Captain in the 25th Texas Cavalry (dismounted)in his book, One of Cleburne's Command…

“It seems curious that men’s minds can change so sudden, from opinions of life long, to new ones a week old.
I mean that men who have not only been taught from their infancy that the institution of slavery was right; but men who actually owned and held slaves up to this time, --have now changed in their opinions regarding slavery, so as to be able to see the other side of the question, --to see that for man to have property in man was wrong, and that the “Declaration of Independence meant more than they had ever been able to see before. That all men are, and of right ought to be free” has a meaning different from the definition they had been taught from their infancy up, --and to see that the institution (though perhaps wise) had been abused, and perhaps for that abuse this terrible war with its results, was brought upon us as a punishment {“for that abuse” is marked out}.
These ideas come not from the Yanks or northern people, but come from reflection, and reasoning among ourselves.”

Please let us know how the project turns out!

Kevin Dally

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Why did the Southern Man go to war?

Mr. Keenson,

-I see you are a new member to this site and your five post have mainly been directed here to this discussion, and to me.
-I have tried to explain "The Art of War", War which is fueled by Economics, and then left up to the Politicians to sell to the masses. Then I explained the process and steps of war. Quoted sources from textbooks that I used in The United States Army Command and General Staff College.
-I used a modern comparison like you did above (See Post 21), but that portion of my post was deleted because it contained a modern comparison, like you reference gasoline in your post above. (You are not allowed to do so on this Website.)
-I have not in a public forum questioned your reality on the subject, and ask you not to use the term when directing your post to me.
-In post 29 I asked all if they would like to discuss this subject with me, please do so in the Private Message Section. Please respect my request.

Mr. Small,
-I wish you the very very best in your project, please let us know how it turns out.

Until then, I have finished my coffee, must get ready for Church, and hopefully get another deer this afternoon before season ends.

with respect,

[Jim of The SRR]

Re: Why did the Southern Man go to war?

I came to the conclusion a some time back that the slavery issue was the driving force behind the war. I have quotes to back me up, as they are an interesting source of info coming from individual soldiers. But, one must be careful to fall into the trap of believing every soldier believed this way.

One must remember that these come from a FEW, not ALL the soldiers:

“I am convinced the institution of slavery is now virtually destroyed & with it we lose the great object for which the Confederacy was made, and without which there never would have been a Confederacy”
Lt. O. C. Orange 19th Texas Infantry

“You came into our country with your army, avowedly for the purpose of subjugating free white men, women, and children, and not only intend to rule over them, but you make negroes your allies, and desire to place over us an inferior race, which we have raised from barbarism to its present position,
which is the highest ever attained by that race, in any country, in all time.”
General John B. Hood to General W. T. Sherman

"'your own countrymen and race' against the 'murder and arson, hanging and stealing' that were sure to accompany the 'liberation of the half-civilized cannibal.'"(p. 15 -- Pvt. Joseph Bruckmuller, 7 TX, Address delivered to other prisoners at Ft. Douglas Prison, Chicago, June 1862, Joseph Bruckmuller Notebook, Center for American History, University of Texas, Austin)

"if slavery is to be abolished then I take no more interest in our fight." Brig. Gen. Clement H. Stevens, AOT.

"There never was, in the history of the world...a more complete abandonment of a cause...than this proposition to free the negroes and make soldiers of them." Col. John J. Seibels, 6th Alabama Infantry.

"There never was, in the history of the world...a more complete abandonment of a cause...than this proposition to free the negroes and make soldiers of them." Col. John J. Seibels, 6th Alabama Infantry.

I do leave you with this thought from a hard core Confederate Soldier, S. T. Foster , Captain in the 25th Texas Cavalry (dismounted)in his book, One of Cleburne's Command…

“It seems curious that men’s minds can change so sudden, from opinions of life long, to new ones a week old.
I mean that men who have not only been taught from their infancy that the institution of slavery was right; but men who actually owned and held slaves up to this time, --have now changed in their opinions regarding slavery, so as to be able to see the other side of the question, --to see that for man to have property in man was wrong, and that the “Declaration of Independence meant more than they had ever been able to see before. That all men are, and of right ought to be free” has a meaning different from the definition they had been taught from their infancy up, --and to see that the institution (though perhaps wise) had been abused, and perhaps for that abuse this terrible war with its results, was brought upon us as a punishment {“for that abuse” is marked out}.
These ideas come not from the Yanks or northern people, but come from reflection, and reasoning among ourselves.”

Please let us know how the project turns out!

Kevin Dally

Mr. Dally,

I believe the answer to this question has far too many answers to really even come to a complete and educated conclusion. However, it is important to keep in mind that there was a distinct caste system in the south...Yeoman and Planters. Most of the quotes you sight are from Confederat officers, who were usually comprised of men from the PLanter class. Thus, their reasons to fight would trend to favor the institution of slavery where the enlisted/Yeoman class would not.
I believe the Planter class had spent generations creating a society/system where the Planter class male was supreme over politics, household, finances, church, slaves and even his yeoman class brothers. Seeing this Patriarchal power and way of life being threatened, the Planter class was willing to go to war to save it. As someone has already pointed out in thsi thread, the Planter class has already long taken steps to empower poor, Yeoman whites to feel as if they were better than the slaves, when in fact many did not live any better. Poor whites were excluded from that patriarichal power that the Planter class held. I think the Yeoman's reasons for going to war were so myriad as to warrant and entire book on the topic and even then not be comprehensive enough.
Sources:
1 Williams, David. “Rich Man’s War – Class, Caste and Confederate Defeat in the Lower Chattahoochee Valley”. University of Georgia Press. Athens, GA. 1998.
2 Journal of the Georgia State House 1863. Georgia State Archives. Morrow, GA. 2009
3 Columbus Daily Inquirer. August 1863 to November 1863. Georgia State Archives. Morrow, GA. 2009.
4 Faust, Drew Gilpin. “This Republic of Suffering - Death and the American Civil War”. First Vintage Civil War Library. Random House, NY, NT. 2008.
5 Williams, David. “Bitterly Divided - The South’s Inner Civil War”. New York Press. NY, NY. 2008.
6 Williams, David. “A People’s History of The Civil War – Struggles for the Meaning of Freedom”. New York Press. NY, NY. 2005.
7 Henderson, Lillian. “Roster of Confederate Soldiers of Georgia”. 1861-1865.

Jim Butler

[lukegilly13]

Re: Why did the Southern Man go to war?

Very interesting thread.
I think Landrum is right. We have to acknowledge the difference in why political states go to war and why individuals go to war. Indivuduals will result in mulitple reasons some similar and some not.
I also think that Dale Beasely is correct in saying economics. Governments survive/thrive on economics and in turn, countries follow. Even in the terms of a revolution the country must be first destroyed before it can be rebuilt. What prevents the mass chaos and breakdown of a society? Government.....who functions by economics. In the case of the South in 1860, the leading states in per capita wealth were KY (hemp), SC (cotton), GA (cotton), MS (cotton), LA (cotton/port), TX (cotton in the north eastern portion). All of these were slave states that survived economically on Agriculture. One could argue that perhaps slavery was not the best economic means on production by 1861 but that's another topic.....the fact remains that in 1860 it was the most common on the large cotton plantations. Furthermore, the lowest ranking states in per captia wealth in 1860 were Maine, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnosota, Nebraska, and Kansas with NC knocking out the top end. With the exception of NC these are all non slave holding states. So there is no argument that the wealthy of the nation in 1860 thrived on agriculture and was dominated (with the exception of states like NJ, Mass, Conn, and RI) by the south. Sourch: Hammond Atlas of United States History copyright 2000.
When the government of the south saw their means of maintaining power being threatened the result was war...as repeated throughout history. Remember the classic saying "Power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely".
Now for the individual, I think you will find that you can come up with about any reason for an individual fighting if you can find out all of their reasons. I think that we are making a huge mistake by assuming that since a particular soldier is from a slave owning family that he is fighting for slavery. Unfortunately we may never know why most of the individuals actually fought since they are not here to ask. I think we owe it to our ancestors to assume they fought for honorable reasons (whatever they may have been) and scars remain that make us assume their enemies fought for lesser causes or reasons.
I would give the following advice.....give two parts to your thesis...one being the reasons states went to war, and the other the reasons individuals went to war. You cannot come up with a finite conclusion of why individuals went to war...but maybe that is the conlcusion itself (that individuals fight for indivual reasons and unless they wrote it down for us we will never know for sure.....time, history, and feelings have perhaps altered their original intentions).

[coastaltrash]

Re: Why did the Southern Man go to war?

Dale,
Read what I wrote. The "cause" as the Confederacy referred to it, was really never established reason per say, but was another phrase for a politically motivated push for war. It's not like "College History" and "Army History" are different.

[TheRuins]

Re: Why did the Southern Man go to war?

I'll never understand the silly obsession with diminishing the chief causes of the Civil War as being something other than conflict over the institution of slavery. Go to the individual statements of secession. Go to the congressional debates at the state and federal level. Go back to the minutes and discussions of the secession conventions themselves. There's mountains and mountains of primary source material which points to slavery; specifically whether or not slavery should continue to spread in the western territories.

Now, back to Pat's comment: As he stated, there's a substantive difference between explaining the large-scale, political causes of the war and why individual soldiers fought. There's been a lot written on the topic--I'll just say that as a professional historian, nobody--and I mean NOBODY in the profession would at all diminish the role of slavery as one of the main, if not the main issues which caused the war. No amount of intellectual gymnastics can avoid the slavery question at some level.

As to the subject of why individual soldiers' fought, there's quite a bit of interesting debate on that topic. One recent interesting monograph on the subject I found interesting.

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Confederates-Fought-Virginia-America/dp/0807831581

[TheRuins]

Re: Why did the Southern Man go to war?

Another point which is overlooked is the political economy of slavery--from slavery's very beginning in the mid 1600s in North America (VA) it spread westward into the Cotton frontier. All through the 19th century slavery spread through the states that would eventually seceded from the union. It started with Tobacco/Rice, and eventually Indigo, Cotton, and Sugar were added to the number of staple crops which were grown in the antebellum South. Slavery made the South's economy so enormously profitable, albeit for mostly the planter class.

So it only stands to reason that with slavery's spread west, many planter-politicians thought slavery to survive--should expand to the western territories. There was also a pretty substantive decline in the profitable nature of Tobacco right before and after the Rev. War, and Tobacco was notoriously hard on the soil, much harder than the other staple crops. So a lot of those planters who made their way into the Cotton Frontier had once been Tobacco planters.

[lukegilly13]

Re: Why did the Southern Man go to war?

I'll never understand the silly obsession with diminishing the chief causes of the Civil War as being something other than conflict over the institution of slavery. --I'll just say that as a professional historian, nobody--and I mean NOBODY in the profession would at all diminish the role of slavery as one of the main, if not the main issues which caused the war. No amount of intellectual gymnastics can avoid the slavery question at some level.
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Confederat.../dp/0807831581

I agree. I agree that it was a major cause of the civil war...and I agree it was A CAUSE for individuals....but I would add that slavery itself might not have been as big of a deal with the individual soldier as it was their government.

[coastaltrash]

Re: Why did the Southern Man go to war?

Right Luke, that's the point I'm trying to make. There is a difference in why the soldiers fought and why the war was started. Really, What this Cruel War is over is a great starting point to solving a lot of this.

[LWhite64]

Re: Why did the Southern Man go to war?

To elaborate a little on what I posted earlier. The thing with slavery is that its not just economic, its social, its cultural, and it also is tied into terror. By terror I mean one of the biggest nightmares to white southerners is a slave insurrection similar to what happened in Haiti. It was the boggey man to them and it didnt just concern slaveowners, Joe Brown references it in his open letter too. So it ties slavery into the defending homes and families. But with that said you do have thousands of men that are brought into CS service through the draft, you have tens of thousands of men who are fighting to defend their homes and familes be it from the fear of what a world would be like with racial equality, slave retribution, micengination or just from the ravages of an invading army. You will also have tens of thousands who fight for the continued expansion of slavery, to preserve it for their economic benefit, and their status at the top of the food chain. So when you look at it some men are fighting for slavery, some men are fighting to defend their homes and families from perceived threats, some men are fighting due to community pressure, and others are fighting due to brought in at gun point. As has been mentioned Chandra Manning's book is a good one of this subject as in Glathaar's General Lee's Army, I would also say add to this Reid Mitchell's Civil War Soldiers, Jason Phillip's Diehard Rebels, Ken Noe's Reluctant Rebels and James McPherson's For Cause and Comrades. Also note that Glathaar is releasing a companion piece of statistics for General Lee's Army this June.

[john duffer]

Re: Why did the Southern Man go to war?

" There is a difference in why the soldiers fought and why the war was started. "

I agree with this completely and feel there was a great deal of simply jumping on the bandwagon once war is declared. 'Everybody else is going so I'll go too" was probably as valid as the more practical preserving slavery, repelling invasion, etc. Look at the converse - why did a young man in Iowa enlist? Saving the Union or freeing the slaves seem pretty abstract to his everyday life.

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: Why did the Southern Man go to war?

"why did a young man in Iowa enlist?"

A bit off track to the conversation, but a good valid question...

“Admit the right of the seceding states to break up the union at pleasure…and how long will it be before the new confederacies created by the first disruption shall be resolved into still smaller fragments and the continent become one vast theater of civil war, military license, anarchy, and despotism? Better settle it at whatever the cost, and settle it forever.”
Pvt. Samuel Evans, 70th Ohio

I believe in what he says.

Kevin Dally

[TheRuins]

Re: Why did the Southern Man go to war?

To elaborate a little on what I posted earlier. The thing with slavery is that its not just economic, its social, its cultural, and it also is tied into terror. By terror I mean one of the biggest nightmares to white southerners is a slave insurrection similar to what happened in Haiti. It was the boggey man to them and it didnt just concern slaveowners, Joe Brown references it in his open letter too. So it ties slavery into the defending homes and families. But with that said you do have thousands of men that are brought into CS service through the draft, you have tens of thousands of men who are fighting to defend their homes and familes be it from the fear of what a world would be like with racial equality, slave retribution, micengination or just from the ravages of an invading army. You will also have tens of thousands who fight for the continued expansion of slavery, to preserve it for their economic benefit, and their status at the top of the food chain. So when you look at it some men are fighting for slavery, some men are fighting to defend their homes and families from perceived threats, some men are fighting due to community pressure, and others are fighting due to brought in at gun point. As has been mentioned Chandra Manning's book is a good one of this subject as in Glathaar's General Lee's Army, I would also say add to this Reid Mitchell's Civil War Soldiers, Jason Phillip's Diehard Rebels, Ken Noe's Reluctant Rebels and James McPherson's For Cause and Comrades. Also note that Glathaar is releasing a companion piece of statistics for General Lee's Army this June.

Great post, Lee. Couldn't agree more here. I want to reiterate the importance of poor whites and whites who owned few or no slaves enlisting with the hope that they could support a slaveholders' republic with the hope that they could one day own slaves.