Period account of "fragging" officers?

[KPavia]

This is from "Gone for a Soldier: The Civil War Memoirs of Pvt. Alfred Bellard." Pvt. Bellard enlisted into the 5th New Jersey Infantry in 1861. On page 188, he describes a captain who was very much disliked. This account takes place around Fredericksburg, Dec. 1862-

A little excitement was caused in the camp on the 19th by the actions of one of our captains. For some cause or other Captain Gould of Co. E had two of his men tied up by their thumbs to trees, so that their toes would just touch the ground. As the captain was noted as a tyrant, and not liked by any of the Regt. some of the boys untied them. This brought out the noble capt. who cut one of the buys over the head with his sword. He had no sooner done so, when the rest of the Regt. turned out and there was every appearance of a riot...Col. Sewell arrived on the scene and demanded the reasons for the row...Capt. Gould never tied up a man after that and shortly after resigned. It was such officers as that who received a stray ball occasionly on the field of battle.

It seems to me that he's implying that "occasionly" unpopular officers were "fragged" (for lack of a better term) by their own men. Is that how the rest of you guys interpret that, and are there any other accounts of "fragging?"

[john duffer]

Re: Period account of "fragging" officers?

From LEE'S LIEUTENANTS, Volume Two, after Cedar Mountain

On behalf of the men who had been "bucked" by Winder for straggling, Private Casler recorded: "[General Winder's] death was not much lamented by the Brigade, for it probably saved some of them the trouble of carrying out their threats to kill him. I would not have done it if I had the chance; but I firmly believe it would have been done by someone in that battle.:

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Period account of "fragging" officers?

In each case, the reference to "fragging" is general or oblique and does not contain confessions or eye witness accounts. It could be tough talk or rumor mongering... whatever it is, I don't think it applies as evidence for the frequency or actual occurences of "fragging", etc. ...merely that the concept was alive and well and something that the men discussed.

[Nathan Dodds]

Re: Period account of "fragging" officers?

Very interesting discussion. It seems like I remember reading from some fiction of the time of a private that was contemplating shooting one of his officers. I guess the book was just that though; fiction. I would be interested in actual accounts where threats were actually carried out.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Period account of "fragging" officers?

On further contemplation:
Its a very sticky topic for people of the time. Naming specifics would involve either a confession or accusation of murder. An oblique reference (such as have been presented here), or an account of a from a veteran many years later (perhaps an account of an interview/conversation from the veteran to the author) might be the best one could hope to find.

[KPavia]

Re: Period account of "fragging" officers?

On further contemplation:
Its a very sticky topic for people of the time. Naming specifics would involve either a confession or accusation of murder. An oblique reference (such as have been presented here), or an account of a from a veteran many years later (perhaps an account of an interview/conversation from the veteran to the author) might be the best one could hope to find.

Yeah, I would be really surprised if we found a letter or journal entry stating, in essence, "today I killed my commanding officer while in battle because I hated him." All we'll probably ever find are second hand accounts that confirm the idea was there but stop short of naming a specific incident.

[bizzilizzit]

Re: Period account of "fragging" officers?

Yeah, I would be really surprised if we found a letter or journal entry stating, in essence, "today I killed my commanding officer while in battle because I hated him." All we'll probably ever find are second hand accounts that confirm the idea was there but stop short of naming a specific incident.

Wouldn't such accounts show up in Court-martials? Would cussing out an officer be an instance of "fragging?"

[Horace]

Re: Period account of "fragging" officers?

'Frag' is short for 'fragmentation grenade'. It defines killing a fellow soldier, almost always a superior, not just threatening him. I understand the term to have been coined in Vietnam. A fired bullet can be traced forensically. An exploded grenade can't.

The wikipedia page on 'fragging' states "There are documented cases of at least 230 American officers killed by their own troops, and as many as 1,400 other officers' deaths could not be explained. Between 1970 and 1971 alone, there were 363 cases of "assault with explosive devices" against officers in Vietnam." Which leads to the point about Civil War court martial records. It's pretty odd that there are that many "documented" cases coming from Vietnam, and we can't point to any in the Civil War. There have been some long ranging studies of the Civil War court martial record and it seems like cases regarding murdering an officer would have been noted in someone's research by now.

I have read references to 'spotting' an officer, which meant marking him for revenge. 'Laying for' someone meant you were out to get them. 'Blowing up' someone meant cussing them out, not actually blowing them up.

I have read a first hand period account about men threatening to kill their officers. I can't find it now, so I can't cite it. The account stated that as far as the writer knew, it never went beyond talk. But as stated above, it's not the sort of thing you'd want to advertise.

[john duffer]

Re: Period account of "fragging" officers?

From a practical standpoint there's quite the wide gulf between 'During the next battle I'm putting a bullet in him' and carrying it out without being caught in the act. In the never-say-never mode you can't say no way it ever happened, but, having the man willing to pull the trigger finding himself in the right spot without witnesses (and making the shot) pull the odds way down.

[Poor Private]

Re: Period account of "fragging" officers?

Confed B. Gen Cobb had aquired a reputation for abusing his men during the 7 Days and Bullrun battles in 1862. He led his men to Fredricksburg where he was killed under strange circumstances. Oral tradition says there was no doubt that he was shot from behind by one or more of his own men.
This is one of several accounts of "fragging" during the civil war that is quoted in
Couriosities of the Civil War By Webb Garrison Chapter 30 entitled "Accidentally on Purpose" pages 328-336 broken down into 21 different instances.
Most are by second hand accounts, and like those stated above who is going to publicly announce that they shot thier general, captain. or whoever?
Aother is of a soldier firing at his Lt. for knocking supports from his tent, but just as he fired another soldier knocked his weapon unward and to the side. The Lt (Lusk) wrote home about the incident.

[Calum]

Re: Period account of "fragging" officers?

'evening,

From Wiley Sword's Hiram Berdan, his famous Sharpshooters and their Sharps Rifles, p 56: "...and unwilling to endure petty treatment or even the brazen threats of generals. When Brigadier General John H. (Hobart) Ward, their brigade commander, threatened to shoot Bill Sweet of Company G on the spot for some trivial offense there was an immediate confrontation. "He was gong to blow hard-tack through (Bill Sweet's) heart," said a sharpshooter, "when every rifle hammer in the company (G) cocked. He heard the click-click, and lowering his revolver, rode off swearing hard at us."..." I believe this would have been 1st Reg't USSS, not 2nd, but I'm not positive.

Not quite an actual account of the deed, but the threat was there and not by a single individual.

Calum Munro

[markj]

Re: Period account of "fragging" officers?

As mentioned above, one of the best sources for information on this subject would undoubtedly be the court martial transcripts at the National Archives. While doing research on the 32nd (First German) Indiana at NARA some years ago, I found 1863 court martial reportage on a captain who drew his sword on his regimental commander and threatened to run him through. Obviously these two men "had a difference of opinion." Needless to say, the captain was quickly court martialed and cashiered out of the service. The guy had an attitude and drinking problem anyway and had been in trouble before. The only reason he was given a second chance was due to his previous gallant conduct at Stones River.

Mark Jaeger

[Wyatt Burleson]

Re: Period account of "fragging" officers?

In Gordon C. Rhea's book Cold Harbor, Grant and Lee May 26-June 3, 1864, he writes on page 78 of a New Jersey private shooting a Captain in the shoulder while leading a counter charge at Haw's Shop. It was witnessed by another New Jersey man, Warren Hush. Hush told the National Tribune in 1886 that he and the private "had a hearty laugh at seeing the Captain dancing from the pain of the shot."

[cprljohnivey]

Re: Period account of "fragging" officers?

From "Four Years in the Stonewall Brigade" located here: http://books.google.com/books?prints...page&q&f=false

" General Winder, commanding our brigade, had issued orders that morning that when the regiments halted to camp, and stacked arms, the roll should be called, and all who were absent should be bucked the next day from sunrise to sunset; that he was determined to break up straggling in the brigade. As I and my friend Powell were not there in time to answer to roll call we were included in the number to be bucked.
Now, bucking a soldier is tying his hands together at the wrists and slipping them down over his knees and then running a stick through under the knees and over the arms. Gagging is placing a bayonet in the mouth and tying it with a string behind his neck.
Some of the officers complained to General Winder about the severity of the order and tried to get him to revoke it; but it was no use—it had to be done. Accordingly about thirty belonging to the brigade were taken out in the woods the next morning, placed under guard, and bucked from sunrise to sunset. It was a tiresome and painful situation, as we had to sit cramped up all day in one position, and if a fellow happened to fall over one of the guards would have to sit him up.
We were all as mad as fury about it, for it was a punishment that had never been inflicted in our brigade before. That night, after we were released, about one-half of the number deserted.
We marched the next day a short distance, but I would not "fall in ranks." I told my Captain I did not intend to answer to roll call that evening, and if I was bucked again for straggling it would be the last time; that I would never shoulder my musket again for a cause that would treat soldiers in that manner.
Some of the officers then went to General Jackson and made complaint about Winder's order. He sent Winder word that he did not want to hear of any more bucking in that brigade for straggling. That was the last of it, and the only time it was ever done. General Winder would often have some of the men tied up by the thumbs at his headquarters all day for some small offense.
He was a good General and a brave man, and knew how to handle troops in battle; but was very severe, and very tyrannical, so much so that he was "spotted" by some of the brigade; and we could hear it remarked by some one near every day that the next fight we got into would be the last for Winder. So it proved; for in a short time we fought the battle of Cedar Run, or Slaughter Mountain, and General Winder was killed. But he was killed by a shell from the enemy before the brigade was engaged." "

[Booth]

Re: Period account of "fragging" officers?

May, 1861, newly mustered 3rd Alabama was stationed in Norfolk. Lt. Storrs of Co I was returning to camp from bathing (it was evening) and chided the sentry, of Co. B, for not giving the proper challenge. He passed in. Several hours later Storrs went out with another soldier to locate a doctor for one of his men. Returning, the sentry made the challenge and his weapon went off, mortally wounding the Lieutenant. Storrs, falling, cried out "I am a dead man. What a foolish sentinel. I had the countersign." The sentry, described as a "Boston Man" was tried and acquitted, his gun said to have "malfunctioned" - all the same he was dismissed from the service, feelings running high against him in the regiment.

Booth