Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

[Ken]

Re: Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

Paul,

Thanks for the discription. One thing you notice with the Post CW eagle "I" buttons is the shield and "I" are raised out of the button face. CW period is not. I saw this when purchasing buttons from Regt. Quartermaster in Gettysburg. Handed them right back.

[CompanyWag]

Re: Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

Quite correct, Ken. That is one of the key spotting features.

Unfortunately some original buttons combine features that may cause some uncertainty. Case in point are the I-shield buttons produced by the firm D. Evans & Company. They have a generally flat shield, but neck and wings that start to look like a chicken with its neck wrung. The references list this company as late war and post war, but diggers report finding these from time to time in known CW campsites, etc. Perhaps this may be a transitional pattern? The quality of D. Evans & Co buttons is quite high.

Paul McKee

[JimKindred]

Re: Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

Just to muddy the water further on some buttons you also have wartime type fronts on post war backs.

[rpierson]

Re: Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

When did the design change to the "prussian" eagle? I've always referred to them as "Indian Wars" buttons which is a little vague. I mean, there were wars with Indians on this continent for longer than this country has been around... but I doubt the buttons are that old;)

Randall, please remember to sign your first and last name when posting on the forum. Thanks! Herb Coats, Moderator

[dixieflyer]

Re: Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

When did the design change to the "prussian" eagle? I've always referred to them as "Indian Wars" buttons which is a little vague. I mean, there were wars with Indians on this continent for longer than this country has been around... but I doubt the buttons are that old;)

True, but when folks refer to post CW "Indian War" uniforms or equipments, I tend to think of 1872 or thereabouts because that was when one sees many reforms/changes in the U.S. Army in terms of same, i.e.: sack coats, forage caps to kepis, etc.

Warren Dickinson

[rpierson]

Re: Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

Ha! Sorry, just playing dumb to illustrate what a vague term"Indian Wars" is. You of course are right, as we know the chicken neck button is post civil war. I was actually hoping to hear a firm year of first production of the "prussian" eagle... It may well be 1872.

-Randall Pierson

[CompanyWag]

Re: Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

The uniform regulations of 1872 introduced many of the "Prussian" affectations adopted by the US Army: spiked helmets, tunics with "Swedish" cuffs, etc. However the regulations stated that the design of the buttons was to be "the same as now worn". Some writers have stated that the prussian chicken eagle with the raised shield didn't appear until the 1880's. If true, this would certainly explain why buttons with CW fronts can be found with post-war backmarks. Unfortunately I don't have an exact date...suffice it to say that these are reliably post-war and were used through the Spanish American War until they were replaced by the bronze button associated with the WW1 era.

Paul McKee

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

Yes, we can all go out and purchase original buttons for our own uniforms, that's one option on the table. The original intent of my post though was not to debate "original vs. repro," but to talk about the state of reproduction buttons themselves. I understand that repros may never be as good as originals, but some original buttons are hard to find or are incredibly expensive, so in those cases we're just stuck with repros. Vendors aren't going to go out and buy up hundreds or thousands of original buttons to put on their reproduction garments, just isn't going to happen for a number of obvious reasons. So, that brings us back to the original question, "Anymore quality US eagle buttons out there?" We used to be able to purchase repro general service eagle, eagle "I", Dragoon, etc., buttons that, while not perfect, were at least acceptable. So, why the decline in quality?

I have a number of inquiries out looking for the buttons of "old", meaning a few years ago, I'll see what I can find.

To illustrate my concern here are a few photos of buttons I purchased in the past compared to those I've purchased recently.

Dragoon button on the right purchased in 2004, the one on the left was purchased two weeks ago. What gives, why so crappy? What's with the impressed ring around the edge?:

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...r/CIMG2531.jpg

US general service button purchased in 2008:

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...r/CIMG2542.jpg

US general service button purchased 3 weeks ago:

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...r/CIMG2547.jpg

[JimKindred]

Re: Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

Ian,

Not all buttons in the market come from a single source so you will have variations from one dealer to the next.

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

Naturally, that's why I'm in touch with a number of different vendors to find out who they buy from. With Dragoon buttons though, it's not like there's huge demand so the number of manufacturers making these can't be great. The general service eagle buttons appear to be from the same manufacturer, just one has a better stamping than the other.

[CompanyWag]

Re: Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

My apologies for allowing myself to wander off on tangents.

Regarding your photos of past reproductions: those are indeed deplorable. One would think with the 150th that there would be a substantial market for at least general service buttons in a much better die stamping. Maybe if enough consumers or businesses complain or return product as defective...

Paul McKee

[rpierson]

Re: Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

Whoa. Well, since those general service buttons both came from the same vendor, why not ask him? Don't mean to throw anyone under the bus, but I view Mr. Kindred as a great source of historical info as well as a seasoned vendor who probably knows more about getting buttons made than anyone on planet earth. That said, I'd think he could easily shed some light on some of the challenges with getting decent quality buttons made AND discuss the current degraded state of repro buttons. Jim, care to comment?

-Randall Pierson

[JimKindred]

Re: Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

The decrease in the quality of the buttons could have resulted from many factors but the primary one I suspect would be that some vendors are more willing to accept the decrease than others are. That being said it also means that a large enough faction of reenactors are also willing to accept the poor quality to not put any pressure on these vendors to improve the quality.

The process of having buttons made is involved to say the least, some of which I prefer not to discuss because I don't want other makers back tracking and finding out my source after I have done all the work. The biggest challenge is finding a company that is willing to make small quantities, in the case of one button I have made the minimum is 5000 per size and style, for another it is 10,000 per size and style. Those are considered small quantities and why you do not find many variations of the same button floating around in market. Some buttons people have asked me to have made in the past because it was a "kewl" button I would have to have made more of that type than was made during the entire Civil War just to get the manufacturers attention. You cannot afford to invest several thousand dollars in a "kewl" project, hope to make it back in four to five years and stay in business long so those type projects do not get much of my attention if any.

The other challenge is having the price of the finished button in the range that people would be willing to buy them. Not everyone is thrilled to spend over a $1 on a button so that has to be figured in was well. Cheap is good but good isn't cheap.

[JimKindred]

Re: Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

Naturally, that's why I'm in touch with a number of different vendors to find out who they buy from. With Dragoon buttons though, it's not like there's huge demand so the number of manufacturers making these can't be great. The general service eagle buttons appear to be from the same manufacturer, just one has a better stamping than the other.

Most vendors will be tight lipped about their sources. From your photo I can without a doubt say that the crappy dragoon button did not come from me.

There are many manufacturers of general service buttons.

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Anymore Quality US Eagle Buttons Out There?

From your photo I can without a doubt say that the crappy dragoon button did not come from me.

Did the better quality Dragoon button come from you? It's on a 1833 Dragoon jacket made by Charlie Childs for Edwin Sims. It is identical to buttons that Sean Malis, State Park Interpreter 1 at Fort Tejon SHP, ordered for the Fort, he said these came from Military Warehouse. If it is from you, that's the button I want. Who retails that button? The vendor I purchased the lousy button from had a picture of the older better quality one on their website, but that's not the button I received. They did send me some nice 7/8" Dragoon buttons that I'll be using on a officer's frock coat. I have ordered cuff size Dragoon buttons from every vendor that I could find who retails these, as they come in I'll report on their quality. The lousy Dragoon button and the better one both have identical backs and shanks.