What kind of cartridge box to get?

[maillemaker]

Hi All,

I have posted this question over on the N-SSA forum, and I don't think I have posted it here. If I have and it got deleted or something I apologize in advance.

I've recently joined the N-SSA to do competitive shooting with my Euroarms P1853 musket. It's a blast.

My first time out the commander of our group. Bob Kelly of the 4th LA, let me borrow equipment. I was using a cartridge and primer box on a waist belt.

As many of you know, the N-SSA is not very authenticity-focused, primarily it is a competitive shooting club with a mild dress code. :) I want to strive for an authentic impression.

Bob tells me that originally when the group was new they tried to all be authentically dressed per the "4th LA", but nowadays people just do whatever they want. This is good, because I'd rather have a more generic Confederate impression that can fit in at any reenactments I might go to, rather than be pigeonholed into something that only works for the 4th LA.

What would you folks recommend I do for a generic Confederate soldier for my belt, cartridge box, and cap box? Should I use shoulder-sling mounted boxes, or waist belt? What sort of buckle should I have on my waist belt? I understand that part of a "stand of arms" of an Enfield rifle included the accouterments and may have had a "snake" buckle? Should I go that route? Or is something else better for a generic Confederate soldier kit?

I kind of liked the "feel" of the cartridge and cap box mounted on my belt, it seemed natural to me. But I've heard that the sling-mounted gear gives better and faster access? Mostly I'm interested in authenticity and something that I can use for lots of reenactments.

Thanks in advance,

Steve

P.S. Here are some of the items I am considering:
S&S Firearms Catalog:

http://www.ssfirearms.com/images/2011%20Catalog/2011%20Catalog%20main.pdf

L14 CW Enfield Cartridge Box
L9 CW Musket Cap Box
L4 CW Regulation Waistbelt

[FloridaConscript]

Re: What kind of cartridge box to get?

I'd go with black unstamped CS leathers copied off of an existing original. Duvall Leatherwork and LD Haning both offer examples of these. A plain black frame buckle (fork tongue, roller buckle) was fairly generic from a CS perspective.

[gsusat]

Re: What kind of cartridge box to get?

A few thought for your consideration on selecting equipment.

What would your unit have - often that depends during what time frame. Early war they may have got leathers form prewar Federal stocks at the arsenals that were captured. They may have been supplied out of Louisana makers - in New Orleans or Baton Rouge. Later in the wear when they were in Miss, Tenn or Georgia they may have been supplied from deep south facilities - Alanta for example. You just have to look into their specific history and the time frame you want to represent.

That being said you look at what is avaliable out there reproductionwise. Most main stream makers have US box and CS box. Often the difference is just that the CS box is not dyed. Some will stamp richmond on the CS box to make sure you know it is Confederate. The pattern of those boxes is base on the general pattern 1861 US box. Quality varies from terrible to poor or somewhat better than poor - stitching is usually not well done. Then there are makers who reproduce specific boxes with the manufacturing differences between boxes made at the various locations. A McGee Horter and George box is made to match the existing surviving examples including the stamps that were used. That tends to cost more but you get a better product.

Duvall and Haning fall into that group. Another one in that group is Missouri Boot and Shoe. Robert is a wealth of information on period leather gear and boots and shoes. Check out all their websites and look at the various boxes avaliable.

While Enfield leather gear was imported, I am not sure it was imported in the same quanity as the rifles. In my opinion more southern produced accroutrements were used than imported. I do agree with the plain frame buckle, forked tounge and roller buckle were the most common.

[maillemaker]

Re: What kind of cartridge box to get?

What would your unit have - often that depends during what time frame.

Our unit does not have authenticity standards, at least, they no longer try and portray the 4th LA specifically. Which is why I'm looking for a more "generic", yet authentic Confederate impression, so that if I go do reenacting outside of NSSA shooting, I'll be able to fit in the to the broadest of possibilities.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: What kind of cartridge box to get?

Hallo!

A fair question, but in many regards an oxymoron, such as asking how far is up or down.

In terms of "authenticity," or faithfulness to what CW soldiers actually had based upon the unit, time, place, and circumstances... what a particular unit is researcehd and documented as having had for a particular time and place is what a recreated solider of that unit "should" have whether clothing, weapons, or gear.

So, ultimately and perhaps ironically to your question, one can not be "authentic" to a specific unit or soldier in time and place and still be generic enough to still be "authentic."

That shifts the discussion over to what otherwise "authentic" kit (defined as made from Period materials to Period patterns using Period methods of construction) one can use that is what lads used to call "Vanilla" in that it is PEC enough, generic enough, to be stretched into different US and CS impressions where what the original units actually had does not matter or is unknown/unrecorded.

And that shifts kit away from the rare, the odd, the unusual, and the one-of-a-kind. Or what is not time appropriate (if that matters for your Mental Picture) For example, one would not "want" a U.S. Pattern of 1864 cartridge box if one was doing 1861 events. But, one can use a P1857 or P1861 box for 1861-1865 with no problem. Or use say a M1865 Spencer carbine for 1861 events.

IMHO...

If nothing else mattered as to an "authentic impression" other than having "authentic kit" (that may not be 'authentic" to the actual unit being portrayed).... then IMHO, you would likely do best with a U.S. P1857 or P1861 .58 box. Such will allow you to "be" a "generic" "vanilla," non-designated CS or US, across N-SSA and reenacting lines as numbers of these were gathered from battlefields by CS Ordnance folks and "recycled."

But, as shared, the Confederates were hard-pressed to cloth, arm, and equip at times, and used a mix of CS made goods, US recycled goods, and foreign imports to get by.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[guad42]

Re: What kind of cartridge box to get?

Mr. Sheldon,

You're getting excellent advice here, I would only add that you might consider picking up the Echoes of Glory set of books, if you don't already have them. The "EoG" books are referenced here a lot and many of the better vendors out there of various goods (W,W, & Co, Duvall, etc etc) reference them when building their products. Books like that might help put your impression/goods into perspective too as you may better understand the genesis of certain items, who used them, etc.

-Sam Dolan

[maillemaker]

Re: What kind of cartridge box to get?

That shifts the discussion over to what otherwise "authentic" kit (defined as made from Period materials to Period patterns using Period methods of construction) one can use that is what lads used to call "Vanilla" in that it is PEC enough, generic enough, to be stretched into different US and CS impressions where what the original units actually had does not matter or is unknown/unrecorded.

What does PEC stand for?

And that shifts kit away from the rare, the odd, the unusual, and the one-of-a-kind.

I have done medieval living history for years, and that is precisely what I want to do. With few exceptions, I like to strive for the usual, not the unusual.

If nothing else mattered as to an "authentic impression" other than having "authentic kit" (that may not be 'authentic" to the actual unit being portrayed).... then IMHO, you would likely do best with a U.S. P1857 or P1861 .58 box. Such will allow you to "be" a "generic" "vanilla," non-designated CS or US, across N-SSA and reenacting lines as numbers of these were gathered from battlefields by CS Ordnance folks and "recycled."

Thanks, this is exactly the advice I was looking for! :)

Steve

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: What kind of cartridge box to get?

Hallo!

"What does PEC stand for?"

It is an acronym for the philosophy and practice of "Plain, Everyday, and Common."

That is a longer discussion, and different lads interpret it in their won ways- but in brief and to over generalize...

It is the philosophy of when research and documentation does not exist or has not yet been found as to what uniforms, weapons, and gear a particulay man or unit had.. but we need to fill in the blanks for reenacting or living history-

Then it is "less wrong" but "not right" to err with kit that is more plain, everyday, and common (partly due to the small mnumbers we field or present to the Public or to each other) than to go with the rare, the unusual, or the outrageous.

One example often used is that of Texas cavalry captain Samuel Richardson who had an image made wearing jaguar fur chaps and sporting jaguar fur covered holsters. While teh photgrpah documented what Richardson was wearing for his sitting that day- it does not speak as to the why's or the how's or the circumstance. So, if one is portraying Richardson at that time and place, then (likely) his outfit is "authentic." But it would NOT be very PEC to use that photograph for every Confederate cavalryman everywhere, and anywhere between 1861 and 1865.
And because it is not, jaguar fur chaps are not very "PEC."

Others' mileage will vary....

Curt