Interesting "Black Confederate" story

[markj]

Very interesting article--in the New York Times--in case you haven't already seen it:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/14/black-or-white/?emc=eta1

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[4VADRUMMER]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

Great article Mark! Thanks for sharing this.

[Auld Pelty]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

The racist comments at the bottom of the story are also "interesting". It appears some Yankees hate long dead mixed blood Confederates more than their all-white countrymen. The history of prominent bi-racial Southern people is not new or profound.

[Old Reb]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

never mind

[David Fox]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

The question of race in the pre-1866 American South (not to mention the North and evolving West) is ever-fascinating. Sometime last year it sparked substantial discourse in the forum when someone dropped a grenade alleging 20,000 blacks served in the Confederate armies. This Gibson story is indeed interesting. But the point remains: the very idea of blacks under arms was very, very ill received in the South prior to the Confederacy's death throes. Written exchanges between Confederate trans-Mississippi commander E. Kirby Smith and his Louisiana district commander Richard Taylor are stark, blunt, and would have landed both in the dock at Nuermburg eighty years later. In the Spring of 1863 in the family Gibson's Louisiana, Taylor was campaigning, attempting to lift pressure from Grant's stranglehold on Vicksburg. Smith wrote Taylor that he hoped "you and your subordinates...may have recognized the propriety of giving no quarter to armed negroes and their officers". Smith hoped Taylor had given such instructions to his subordinates on this "delicate and important" matter. Taylor wrote back the "unfortunate" fact that he had, indeed, recently captured some "armed negroes". Smith reinterated that, until ordered otherwise from Richmond, no quarter was to be given to blacks carrying weapons. Two months later Richmond clarified its position: Blacks, if (!) captured, were to be reduced to servitude, but, "in the discretion of the commanding officer", Confederate Secretary of War James Seddon ordered, white U.S. Army officers captured leading black combat troops were "subject to execution". (Jeffery S. Prushankin, "A Crisis in Confederate high Command", Louisiana State University Press, 2005, pp. 38-39).

These were simply not men living at a place and during times that allowed them to knowingly accept philosophically the notion of anyone arguably of African descent bearing arms against anyone of European descent. It happened, but there was no wink-and-nod on the part of anyone, especially anyone in Confederate civil or military authority. Jews served in the Whermacht, but you can bet your last pfennig the OKW didn't know it.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

These were simply not men living at a place and during times that allowed them to knowingly accept philosophically the notion of anyone arguably of African descent bearing arms against anyone of European descent. It happened, but there was no wink-and-nod on the part of anyone, especially anyone in Confederate civil or military authority.

Yes, I thought the take-away lesson in the article was the fact that the line was there, so in order for a black man to be accepted equally, he had to "become" a white man. Then it was all okay and didn't cause any cognitive dissonance. There were lots of nuances among the social attitudes toward: any particular individual with black ancestry who presented himself as white; any particular individual who presented himself as black; and black people as a race.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[4VADRUMMER]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

While the Confederacy may have not allowed blacks to "Take up arms" in the military. Blacks in large numbers served in a multitude of other very important and crucial rolls in the Confederate Army to include teamster, cook, musician, and so on a so forth. My point is that today in the modern military even if you are a cook you rate the same medals and respect as fellow soldiers on the front lines. Why do we look at these men who served in the Confederate army in a different light today. Weather or not these men were willingly serving is up for debate in many cases however they still served in the Confederate Army and I for one consider them soldiers! Due respect is owed to these brave men too. That's just my two cents and the way I've always felt. A soldier is a soldier, cook or infantryman, they all are vital rolls necessary in the survival and well being of the army.

[David Fox]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

Not to be difficult and every man to his own reasonable opinion. I do believe, however, a clear distiction existed: black teamsters, cooks, laborers, etc. didn't serve in the Confederate armies, they served the Confederate armies. Almost to a man they were slaves, not freemen carried on the rolls as soldiers.

[rpierson]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

It is a well known fact that Robert Lee's great slave raid on Pennsylvania in June-July of '63 (AKA: The Gettysburg Campaign), yielded hundreds of these black laborers who were promptly pressed into Confederate service. I have not read anywhere that there is evidence of free black men fighting for the Confederacy.

Comparing a modern military in which all members take the same oath and are afforded the same basic rights with one 150 years past that enacted no such provisions, is a BIT of a stretch. Just sayin...

Randall Pierson

[LWhite64]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

"If slaves will make good soldiers our whole theory of slavery is wrong.'" Howell Cobb

[Hank Trent]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

My point is that today in the modern military even if you are a cook you rate the same medals and respect as fellow soldiers on the front lines. Why do we look at these men who served in the Confederate army in a different light today. Weather or not these men were willingly serving is up for debate in many cases however they still served in the Confederate Army and I for one consider them soldiers! Due respect is owed to these brave men too.

I'm not sure we do look at them in a different light, as far as having modern moral/character opinions about them. It's a complicated issue, because those who feel that any bravery should be respected, regardless in what situation it was shown, would respect them, while others would have trouble getting past the fact that they were employing that bravery to assist the men who were oppressing them, when there were other choices. But not all those choices earn easy respect either.

In the modern world, it's easy to work up a good, defensible position for someone like, say, Frederick Douglass or Harriet Tubman; but not so much for the other two extremes, Nat Turner, or some anonymous cook who survived by playing the role of a "good negro," earning his master's trust and getting a favored position better than the ditchdiggers and field hands.

Personally, I don't think any category necessarily, by definition, should be respected without question, but I can try to understand how each approached the problems in their lives in different ways and justified their choices.

But from a period standpoint, as the above posters have said, there was definitely a different attitude toward black laborers or servants, compared to white soldiers (or ones socially defined as "white," as in the article). That difference puts them in a unique position, in the context of the world that they lived in, and I think it's useful to consider their lives in light of that, rather than simply lumping them as soldiers, when trying to understand the outlook and motivations.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[4VADRUMMER]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

Thousands of Blacks who served in the Confederate army received pensions for their service after the war.... Many applied for pensions for service which were denied by their respective states.....? They must have meant something to enough southerners to get pensions for service passed though law. Also of note there were at least 45 free blacks who served in the Confederate army (pension records) and at least one white man (pension records) received pension for service as a "body servant". There are always exceptions to the rule. I agree with the overall opinion that most were placed/forced into service but there were the occasional exceptions. As I said weather they were willing participants are not is a mute point. Their service should be remembered regardless. These men themselves must have felt the same given the numbers that applied for service pensions and were members of the UCV. That whole time period was a nasty time for a lot of people in this country and should be remembered. I don't agree with the modern sentiment of tucking away history like it never happened. We need to remember these things so that history can never repeat itself. We as a society have come a LONG way in the last 150 years haven't we!

[rpierson]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

I agree that their service should be remembered. They were human beings and it is to some extent their legacy. We should remember correctly that the vast majority were SLAVES and had no choice in the matter. Apparently there are 45 exceptions to this.

I do not view application for a pension as proof of patriotic, post-war nostalgia for the "cause". I do view it as proof that these men would have liked to get money from the government. The reconstruction south was a harsh environment for newly freed blacks & money was in short supply.

I am most curious about the black members of the UCV. How many were there? This is the first I've heard of this & would like to read more on it. Is there reliable written material? In many ways the post war south was even more violent and racist than it had been during & prior to the CW so it seems odd that the UCV would even allow black membership.

I absolutely agree that "tucking" away history is a mistake. With that in mind, I would certainly hope that ALL students of the CW do not stop their study with the surrender of C.S. armies. Reconstruction is IMO more important to understanding individual soldier motivations for fighting the war than understanding the period of the war itself. Understanding post-war race relations in the country (north & south) goes a long way towards examining the real sociological consequences of the CW. A basic understanding of the rise of "lost-cause mythology" will shed light on many of our MODERN interpretations of historic events. That said, I feel that most reenactors do not study this period! I hope I'm wrong!

-Randall Pierson

[4VADRUMMER]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

Here, you can read some Black Confederate biographies: http://www.calebstriumph.com/black_c...ographies.html
While there were few, they were present.
While reading some of the above post I've noticed that there seems to be this perception that because blacks in many cases were forced to join the Confederate army they should not be remembered or honored. Last time I checked there was a lot of Americans of all colors forced to join the military during the Vietnam war, two of them were my uncles and one was my father in law. We look at them as honored american heroes! What's the difference? For to long people have tried to bury the truth.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

While reading some of the above post I've noticed that there seems to be this perception that because blacks in many cases were forced to join the Confederate army they should not be remembered or honored. Last time I checked there was a lot of Americans of all colors forced to join the military during the Vietnam war, two of them were my uncles and one was my father in law. We look at them as honored american heroes! What's the difference? For to long people have tried to bury the truth.

Where in the posts above do you see any hint that they should not be remembered? At most, in my post I took the stance that no people should be given honors simply for being in a certain category, but that's just my own personal belief and applies to black, white, soldier, civilian, volunteer, draftee, in any century, and I've certainly given no indication that we shouldn't remember any category of people.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com