Interesting "Black Confederate" story

[4VADRUMMER]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

I wasn't pointing fingers at you Trent. I totally agree with your post and I guess I was a little off base. Besides we got way off topic on this discussion anyway! It's one of those endless debates like "why did the war start". Take care man.

[rpierson]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

I believe that honoring someone for their decision & sacrifice is totally appropriate. Slaves that were forced into CS service did not make a decision in the matter. Unfortunately, it seems that honoring & glorifying African-American CS service is more useful to those wishing to distance the South from race issues & slavery as a MAJOR cause of the whole affair than it is to the families & descendants of those bondsmen who may actually wish to honor their ancestors.

If one could prove that blacks fought in great numbers on the side of the Confederacy, that might indeed indicate that slavery wasn't a major issue and lend some legitimacy to those who claim that most slaves in the south were well taken care of & happy in their position. If one could prove that freed men and slaves fought side by side with white southerners it would indicate that a defense of homeland & preservation of southern ideals was as important to blacks as to whites & that slavery truly was a secondary issue. History demonstrates the opposite of course, but that doesn't stop modern lost cause devotees from constantly "honoring" black Confederates as a tool to further their fanciful arguments of inter-racial bliss in the South. The lost cause is a cancer on the memory of the war. I think there is more "honor" in tackling the demons of our heritage than there is in putting a sunny spin on VERY dark facts.

-Randall Pierson

[LWhite64]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

I think this, http://cwmemory.com/2010/01/19/how-m...k-confederate/ is of use here. Also other postings from that blog.

[4VADRUMMER]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

Thanks much for that link Mr.White. Goes to show that this is one of those endless debates. To clarify, I don't think glorifying forced service is correct or tolerable especially in a case of a spin to make a wrong seem right . Their service should however at least be noted in American history as this has not and is not the case and it's unfortunate. It's my personal belief that anyone who has served our country "north or south" deserves recognition for their service and I honor them. Let's face it folks, it was a terrible time in our history regarding equal rights and just treatment of people of all races and genders. We still have a lot to accomplish as a nation in this facet. The Confederacy is not going to win any prize for it's treatment of blacks. The Union isn't either. You think that a man serving in a black regiment was treated any where near equal to a man in a white regiment you got another thing coming. Most of their service was for the hard labor jobs and the most dangerous assaults ie Ft.Wagner & Petersburg where the men were slaughtered. This was the case in the U.S. Armed services until the 1960's. So don't go pointing fingers at the south as the Bad Guys in this. Both sides were equally guilty in the mistreatment of these Americans. We are all Americans and need to remember our history and know that it's that history that makes us who we are. It's not pretty in a lot of ways buts it's ours and we own it. So let's stop finger pointing and placing blame on sides. I have ancestors that fought on both sides of the conflict and I'm sure they all had their own views of why they were going to war. That's why we all love this thing so much. It's all these unanswered questions that keep us all so intrigued.
Here is a good link to the only know Black man that was both a member of the United Confederate Veterans and the Grand Army of the Republic: http://toombs.150m.com/Biographies/Hicks.htm
Interesting that his 1941 obituary stated that he was "forced" to join the Union Army as General Sherman's men poured through Georgia. He had served in the Confederate army as a servant for his master.

[dixieflyer]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

Thanks for posting that link Lee, John Schwartz turned me on to this blog and I've enjoyed it very much.

[David Fox]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

Comrade "Drummer": I concur in your sentiments.
Regrettably, one is beginning to begin to perceive resurrection of some of the same sort of obtuse vibes that radiated out of the Civil War centennial, in which which I participated. That anniversary was heavily, heavily tainted by the concurrent throes of societal intergration. There was righteous finger pointing on the one side and myth spinning on the other. Suffice to say, that which we commemorate was NOT a pretty war. Most of us today would have been embarassed by the attitudes of our ancestors of the 1860s, on many topics. I reckon I've lived too long to have the patience I probably should have for moonlight and magnolia wistfulness. My granddaughter would say that, whatever their prejudices, the fighting men of both sides in the 1860s "manned-up" in ways that are profound. We need to man-up in accepting, not necessarily dwelling upon, their objective flaws.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

For a perspective on black Confederates from the early post-war years, here's an article on Confederate Negro Enlistments from 1879.

The author mentions the relief and gratefulness in the south that no major slave insurrections occurred during the war, and that the "negroes" in general were docile, loyal, respectful, and well behaved during and after the war. Later in the article he notes the long reluctance in the south to use them as actual soldiers, until various economic and social conditions made it inevitable at the very end of the war.

The article would be laughably offensive if written today, not because the facts are necessarily wrong, but because it looks at black people exclusively from white people's perspective, declaring unilaterally which behavior of theirs is morally good or bad, based on what's good or bad for their owners. Praising the docility and loyalty of a slave is no longer politically correct, since there's no longer widespread agreement in society that docility and loyalty among the oppressed are by definition morally good, but honoring a brave black Confederate soldier can accomplish a similar pro-white agenda in a politically correct way.

The blog that Lee White linked points up the problem. The very fact that the blog author can point to a recognizable "standard 'neo-Confederate' line" shows the uphill battle that historians face, if they want to show they're not just using the stories of black Confederates to further a particular agenda. In my experience, it's rare to find someone who both advocates black Confederate stories and is working hard to distance the stories from that agenda. Very very few people in the 1860s, north or south, wanted absolute equality of the races, but it's way too simplistic to say that both sides were equal in their mistreatment, or to ignore the difference between those who worked to lessen the inequality compared to those who worked to maintain the status quo.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[4VADRUMMER]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

"or to ignore the difference between those who worked to lessen the inequality compared to those who worked to maintain the status quo."
That's politics hard at work Hank! Unfortunately the Souths political makeup was controlled by the rich plantation owners who didn't even make up 5% of the Souths population. They were able to stop any advancement towards ending slavery. A lot of southerners who were against the institution would never speak out against it publicly for fear of retribution. It's for this political control that so many Americans lost their lives. Interesting fact that it's this political stand that ultimately was the Souths demise. For had the south abolished the institution of slavery prior to the war the war never would have happened and if the South would have abolished slavery during the war Great Britian and other European nations would have more than likely rendered more assistance to the south than it did. For it is well noted that the Europeans did not like the institution of slavery a bit. I swear man, those Lawyers and Politicians have killed more people than any army ever will!

[Hank Trent]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

"or to ignore the difference between those who worked to lessen the inequality compared to those who worked to maintain the status quo."
That's politics hard at work Hank! Unfortunately the Souths political makeup was controlled by the rich plantation owners who didn't even make up 5% of the Souths population. They were able to stop any advancement towards ending slavery.

Well yes, unlike in the north, where the abolitionist movement was grudgingly allowed to make some progress, and politicians gradually voted to end slavery within their states in the antebellum period, despite leaving other restrictions on free blacks intact (restrictions that were also generally in place for free blacks within the south). That's my point. The two sides weren't "equally guilty in the mistreatment of these Americans." One side was allowing progress, while the other wasn't.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Auld Pelty]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

Nonsense revisionist history. Very few Americans accepted black people as equals and it was midwest Northern States (e.g. Ohio, Illinois) that created the first Black Codes that made it virtually impossible for black people to immigrate. Ironically, Mississippi had a similar law and to this day has the highest percentage of black citizens of all states. As for General Lee and the march to Pennsylvannia, there was no widespread looting, no sanctiononed thievery (as opposed to Sherman's March) and the old story about enslaving free blacks by the ANV is a despicable lie.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

I have not read anywhere that there is evidence of free black men fighting for the Confederacy.

Jason Boone, a free black farmer joined the 41st Va. Infantry. Several years ago at the request of a family member a Confederate head stone was placed on his unmarked grave in Suffolk. A Confederate flag was given to the oldest member of the family who I think was over 90 years old. Jason Boone received a Confederate pension from the state of Virginia. In order to receive this pension he had to have several statements confirming his service from members of the 41st.

Read about Jason at http://www.petersburgexpress.com/Boone.html

And if you look a little more there is a Confederate veteran news clip on u-tube that shows about 7 or 8 black Confederate veterans at a reunion.

Despite being 2nd class citizens they cast their lot with the Confederacy to resist the invading Union Army. Did they acutally fight and pull a trigger? There is no one around to ask.

[dixieflyer]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

I am amazed at some of the gymnastics that have or are taking place on this subject on various blogs, websites, etc. (Forgive me, but I've been away from the CW research loop for 10+ years.) Did black men serve the CS gov't during the war? Sure, there is ample evidence that this took place. Were some volunteers? No doubt, some were. Were some impressed or given no choice (as in "did they have much choice in anything in their lives?)? No doubt. How many? Who knows? However that 90,000 figure I see being thrown about just boggles the normal mind! If there had been 90,000 black CS soldiers we would have known long before now. There can be no doubt some black CS soldiers existed, but not in nearly the numbers some folks would suggest.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

Jason Boone, a free black farmer joined the 41st Va. Infantry. Several years ago at the request of a family member a Confederate head stone was placed on his unmarked grave in Suffolk. A Confederate flag was given to the oldest member of the family who I think was over 90 years old. Jason Boone received a Confederate pension from the state of Virginia. In order to receive this pension he had to have several statements confirming his service from members of the 41st.

Read about Jason at http://www.petersburgexpress.com/Boone.html.

This line from the article caught my eye: "He was considered a specialist in the building of breastworks - a defensive low wall used in battle - or trenches."

My great great grandfather, coincidentally, served in the 41st Virginia, Co. F, and they spent most of the war marching and fighting, so it seemed odd that a member would say he specialized in building breastworks or trenches. My wife's great grandfather, for example, did serve in a Union regiment that helped build the fortifications around Cincinnati, so it would make more sense for someone in that kind of regiment to say that.

It seems Boone's service wasn't quite as straightforward as the article implies. He's not listed on the roster, that I could find, in the 41st Virginia regimental history series or the NPS database. However, his pension application is on ancestry.com (link for those with a subscription: http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?htx...rc=&pid=538044 ) and that explains how he wound up in his specialty.

It probably wasn't by choice.

He filed in September 1924, using "Form No. 6, Application of a person who served the Confederate States in the war between the States as body servant, cook, hostler, or teamster, or who worked on the Confederate breastworks, under Act approved March 14, 1924."
He gave his name as Jason Boone, age 91, born Nansemond County, VA.

6. In what branch of the service were you employed? Inft
7. What service did you render? ditching, grading, and throwing up breast works.
8. Under whose order or by whose request did you render the service above explained? Mr. Robert Jones [below that, not as dark] William Jones [There were many Jones's in the 41st, for example http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~vaschs/cwvets.txt, including an orderly sgt. William Jones of Co. K. ]
9. Who was your master at the time of entering upon duties in the war between the States? free born
10. When did you begin such service? 1862
11. Where did you begin such service? [blank]
12. When and why did you leave the service? war ended
13. Where do you reside?... J. Walter Hosier Suffolk living with daughter on Hosier Road about five miles [illeg.]
14. What is your occupation for earning a livelihood? unable to do any labor
15. What is your annual income from all sources? nothing

What's missing from the article, then, is what seems to me the most interesting and poignant part.

The professor who spoke at the ceremony, according to the article, said, ''History is not what we want the past to be. History is what the past was. We read into the past prejudices of the present. Why would Mr. Boone fight for the South? He was a Southern patriot.''

Yet, in making history what he wants it to be, the professor overlooks the fact that Boone wasn't fighting for the south. He most likely wasn't allowed to. He was digging trenches.

Boone's world wasn't the world of the soldiers in the front lines, and I don't think we need to pretend it was, because if we have to pretend it was, then the implication is that anything less--in other words, what Boone really did--seems like a disappointment. That's not fair to him or to history.

Did Boone question why he had to take a shovel rather than a gun? Or did he simply accept his place, earning his pay and causing no trouble? Did he see the work as patriotic? Was it just another job?

The professor continued, according to the article: ''I can't imagine the times that this man heard, 'Jason, you're fighting on the wrong side.' Why would a black Southerner, especially a Virginian, fight for the Confederacy."

I can't imagine he heard that either. He was doing what was expected of him, being a "good negro" like in the article I linked to earlier, despite being a free man. I don't think it was anything that a typical southerner--or northerner, for that matter--would believe to be odd at all.

It's simpler to say either that white men fought while black men dug trenches, or that white and black fought side by side, but race was complicated--I don't deny that. An enslaved black man I'm researching now was assigned before the war to whip the slaves on a cotton plantation. When he ran away, a white man helped him escape, while another black man helped slave catchers chase him. And everyone involved considered it all pretty much normal.

So I'm hardly advocating that race was a simple dividing line. But what's disappointing is when historians like the professor take us further away from Jason Boone's life, rather than closer to it, by trying to fit him into the currently popular mold of the patriotic black Confederate soldier fighting equally beside his white comrades.

I'd rather the professor just stuck with his more important words: ''History is not what we want the past to be. History is what the past was." And from there we could start to try to research what the lives of people like Jason Boone really were like.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[4VADRUMMER]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

The only account I've been able to find of a black soldier taking up arms in the Confederate army came from an account of Captain C. A. Stevens of Berdan's sharpshooters. In Captain Stevens after action report (siege of Yorktown, April 1862) he reported a "Negro rifle shooter" that harassed his men for several days shooting at them. One day a scouting party being led by Sergeant Andrews of Company E discovered the fellow in the second story of an old standing chimney where he was "finally brought down". It was reported by the scouting party that the Negro had been using a telescoped rifle and was firing at them from a very well concealed position. Interesting to say the least. Captain Stevens report also stated that it appeared to them that this "Negro rifle shooter" was being directed by a Confederate Officer. Master I presume? If you guys are interested in this it appears in J. H. Segars book Black Southerners in Confederate Armies pages 50-51.

[rpierson]

Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

...and the old story about enslaving free blacks by the ANV is a despicable lie.

Do you say that because you refuse to believe it, or because you have evidence that Lee's armies did NOT enslave free blacks? Please elaborate.

-Randall Pierson