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Interesting "Black Confederate" story

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  • #31
    Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

    Well, here we go again. Cranking up for reprise of the thread initially asserting 20,000 blacks cheerfully shouldered muskets, fighting for the Confederacy and, thus, their right to sing "We are A Band of Brothers" and, concurrently, for their right to have their families sold down the river.

    Comrade Pelty: as to whether Lee's Army looted and kidnapped black people during the Gettysburg Campaign, well, yes it did. On an heroic scale. One reason Lee was short of cavalry July 1st, 1863 was because too many of his horse soldiers were busy escorting coffles of Pennsylvania Black men, women, and children, some who had never been slaves, back down the Valley Pike and into the joys of involuntary servitude (where, one supposes, large numbers of the males Saw The Light, enlisted, and thereafter fought them dispicable Yankees). A Confederate officer's contemporary writing reports being sickened by this abject misery his own army was visiting upon these terrified people and as cavalrymen offered him and others private roadside sales of Black flesh.

    As to the looting, Kent Brown's "Retreat from Gettysburg" (Univ. of North Carolina Press, 2005) makes a telling argument that it was a chief purpose of the raid: for the Army of Northern Virgina to gather a season's worth of sustenence from the northern populous. And gather they did. forty-five MILES of wagons creaking south, most of them Pennsylvania and Maryland farm wagons, along with the up to 20,000 farmers' horses and mules that pulled them. Along side this train were 30,000 head of noncombatants' cattle, 25,000 sheep, and uncounted hogs. There were thousands of tons of Pennsylvania and Maryland hay and grain, and thousands of barrels of flour. Then there were the incidentals: leather, harnesses, saddles, tack, bellows, forges, coal, coal oil, iron, tools, tar, pencils, pens, paper, cloth, hats, clothing, etc. And this doesn't include what individual soldiers lifted. Almost all this plethora of property came from citizens who were either not paid at all or received utterly worthless script which cost the Confederacy nothing. This is why Lee could report to Jeff Davis that his army "achieved a general sucess, though it did not win a victory" ("Retreat", page 388).
    Last edited by David Fox; 05-23-2011, 06:58 AM.
    David Fox

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    • #32
      Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

      As promised: from Stephen Spears, "Gettysburg", (Houghton Mifflin, 2003), page 111-112:

      "The pursuit and capture of blacks, initiated by Jenkins's cavalry in Chambersburg, continued as the Army of Northern Virginia crossed the Pennsylvania line. In Mercerburg , for example, professor Phillip Schaff recorded in in his diary that ' public and private houses were ransacked, horses, cows, sheep, and provisions stolen day by day without mercy, negroes captured and carried back into slavery (even such as I know to have been born and raised on free soil) and many other outrages committed'." "Slave-catching was practiced by the infantry as well. William S. Christian, colonel of the 55th Virginia...wrote his wife...on June 28, 'we took a lot of negroes yesterday. I was offered my choice but as I could not get them back home I would not take them....In fact, my humanity revolted at taking the poor devils away from their homes'. " "...Slave-catching...was without question widely and officially tolerated.... Of various ugly incidents stemming from Lee's Pennsylvania invasion, this was surely the ugliest".
      David Fox

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      • #33
        Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

        Originally posted by David Fox View Post
        As promised: from Stephen Spears, "Gettysburg", (Houghton Mifflin, 2003), page 111-112:
        "...Slave-catching...was without question widely and officially tolerated.... Of various ugly incidents stemming from Lee's Pennsylvania invasion, this was surely the ugliest".
        Indeed! That surely is the ugliest.
        Thanks for the quote, duly noted and filed sir.
        Warren Dickinson


        Currently a History Hippy at South Union Shaker Village
        Member of the original Pickett's Mill Interpretive Volunteer Staff & Co. D, 17th Ky Vol. Inf
        Former Mudsill
        Co-Creator of the States Rights Guard in '92

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        • #34
          Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

          Wow, a couple of my Great, Great, Great uncles from Essex County Virginia were enlisted in the 55th Virginia.
          [FONT="Georgia"][SIZE="5"]Eric Davis
          Handsome Company Mess
          Liberty Hall Drum Corps [/SIZE][/FONT]

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          • #35
            Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

            Moderator Note: Stick to American Civil History folks. That is what the forum covers. Take other time period discussion elsewhere. At least this go round, the subject sources are being mostly cited to back up arguments. Keep it that way, and stay on subject. if not the moderators are closing this one down... Again
            Last edited by Coatsy; 05-24-2011, 09:18 AM.
            Herb Coats
            Armory Guards &
            WIG

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            • #36
              Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

              A monument to slaves who died constructing Fort DeRussy.
              Attached Files
              Tom Yearby
              Texas Ground Hornets

              "I'd rather shoot a man than a snake." Robert Stumbling Bear

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              • #37
                Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

                Originally posted by rpierson View Post
                It is a well known fact that Robert Lee's great slave raid on Pennsylvania in June-July of '63 (AKA: The Gettysburg Campaign), yielded hundreds of these black laborers who were promptly pressed into Confederate service. I have not read anywhere that there is evidence of free black men fighting for the Confederacy.

                Randall Pierson
                If you're going to make a bold statement like this, you better be prepared to back it up with some pretty HARD documentation. Maybe I'm green on the subject, but I've never come across any documentation that suggests that hundreds of blacks were pressed into service when the Confederate Army crossed the Mason-Dixon line.


                Comparing a modern military in which all members take the same oath and are afforded the same basic rights with one 150 years past that enacted no such provisions, is a BIT of a stretch. Just sayin...
                On that we're agreed.

                Paul B.
                Paul B. Boulden Jr.


                RAH VA MIL '04
                (Loblolly Mess)
                [URL="http://23rdva.netfirms.com/welcome.htm"]23rd VA Vol. Regt.[/URL]
                [URL="http://www.virginiaregiment.org/The_Virginia_Regiment/Home.html"]Waggoner's Company of the Virginia Regiment [/URL]

                [URL="http://www.military-historians.org/"]Company of Military Historians[/URL]
                [URL="http://www.moc.org/site/PageServer"]Museum of the Confederacy[/URL]
                [URL="http://www.historicsandusky.org/index.html"]Historic Sandusky [/URL]

                Inscription Capt. Archibold Willet headstone:

                "A span is all that we can boast, An inch or two of time, Man is but vanity and dust, In all his flower and prime."

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                • #38
                  Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

                  Unfortunately the Souths political makeup was controlled by the rich plantation owners who didn't even make up 5% of the Souths population. They were able to stop any advancement towards ending slavery. A lot of southerners who were against the institution would never speak out against it publicly for fear of retribution. It's for this political control that so many Americans lost their lives. Interesting fact that it's this political stand that ultimately was the Souths demise.
                  .
                  .
                  .
                  I swear man, those Lawyers and Politicians have killed more people than any army ever will!
                  Well, you know the saying: Old men start wars and young men fight them. I guess it would be more proper to say Old men with money at stake start wars, and young men fight them. This seems to be a historical truth, right up to today.

                  For had the south abolished the institution of slavery prior to the war the war never would have happened and if the South would have abolished slavery during the war Great Britian and other European nations would have more than likely rendered more assistance to the south than it did.
                  To me, this is one of the most damning indictments that shows how integral the institution of slavery was to the interests of the South. Had they wished it, they could have issued their own Emancipation Proclamation after Lincoln's. They did not because they could not. The people with the financial interests at stake, and thus the political influence over policy, had too much to lose.

                  Steve
                  Steve Sheldon

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                  • #39
                    Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

                    Some things will never change!
                    [FONT="Georgia"][SIZE="5"]Eric Davis
                    Handsome Company Mess
                    Liberty Hall Drum Corps [/SIZE][/FONT]

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                    • #40
                      Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

                      [QUOTE]I do believe, however, a clear distiction existed: black teamsters, cooks, laborers, etc. didn't serve in the Confederate armies, they served the Confederate armies.[/QUOTE[

                      I think this pretty much sums up the thread.

                      Steve
                      Steve Sheldon

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                      • #41
                        Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

                        [QUOTE=maillemaker;202626]
                        I do believe, however, a clear distiction existed: black teamsters, cooks, laborers, etc. didn't serve in the Confederate armies, they served the Confederate armies.[/QUOTE[

                        I think this pretty much sums up the thread.

                        Steve
                        Thread Summary:

                        If that was true, then all the conscripted logistical support in all wars were "serving" the armies and not entitled to be called soldiers. That is demeaning to all the black and white cooks, teamsters, shoemakers, medical support, etc. The Confederate veterans, black and white, thought differently and that is highly offensive to some Yankees.
                        Fergus Bell

                        "Give a man fire & he will be warm for a day, but set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life."
                        Terry Pratchett

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                        • #42
                          Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

                          Originally posted by David Fox View Post
                          Comrade Pelty: as to whether Lee's Army looted and kidnapped black people during the Gettysburg Campaign, well, yes it did. On an heroic scale. One reason Lee was short of cavalry July 1st, 1863 was because too many of his horse soldiers were busy escorting coffles of Pennsylvania Black men, women, and children, some who had never been slaves, back down the Valley Pike and into the joys of involuntary servitude (where, one supposes, large numbers of the males Saw The Light, enlisted, and thereafter fought them dispicable Yankees). A Confederate officer's contemporary writing reports being sickened by this abject misery his own army was visiting upon these terrified people and as cavalrymen offered him and others private roadside sales of Black flesh.

                          As to the looting, Kent Brown's "Retreat from Gettysburg" (Univ. of North Carolina Press, 2005) makes a telling argument that it was a chief purpose of the raid: for the Army of Northern Virgina to gather a season's worth of sustenence from the northern populous. And gather they did. forty-five MILES of wagons creaking south, most of them Pennsylvania and Maryland farm wagons, along with the up to 20,000 farmers' horses and mules that pulled them. Along side this train were 30,000 head of noncombatants' cattle, 25,000 sheep, and uncounted hogs. There were thousands of tons of Pennsylvania and Maryland hay and grain, and thousands of barrels of flour. Then there were the incidentals: leather, harnesses, saddles, tack, bellows, forges, coal, coal oil, iron, tools, tar, pencils, pens, paper, cloth, hats, clothing, etc. And this doesn't include what individual soldiers lifted. Almost all this plethora of property came from citizens who were either not paid at all or received utterly worthless script which cost the Confederacy nothing. This is why Lee could report to Jeff Davis that his army "achieved a general sucess, though it did not win a victory" ("Retreat", page 388).
                          If the ANV stole vast amounts of personal property, ala Sherman's March, then it would have been just as evil.

                          No one is ever going to be able to determine how much Yankee property was stolen vs. paid for with Yankee currency. President Davis and General Lee always contended the majority was purchased and if I have to weigh their veracity against Mr. Brown, then he loses. As for the capturing of black people, slaves had been escaping from Virginia and Maryland into Pennsylvannia for decades and many were returned prior to the War. Those adult male slaves that remained could have been enlisted into the Union Army had they not been returned to VA. Had the ANV recovered some of the millions of dollars of stolen household property by yankee soldiers, it would be a large difference for modern Americans, but perhaps not near as much difference to the general population of 1863. Do you have hard evidence that large numbers of Free black people were kidnapped? At any rate, it was certainly a poor political move for the Confederates who were hoping for a European military intervention.
                          I wish the ANV had not captured a single black civilian, but returning fugitave slaves was legal under Federal law. It did not even violate the unenforceable EP.
                          Stealing property and abusing civilians could never be justified by either side. And there is no comparison between the Total War Union atrocities and far less substantial Confederate war crimes.
                          Fergus Bell

                          "Give a man fire & he will be warm for a day, but set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life."
                          Terry Pratchett

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                          • #43
                            Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

                            Books! They should be the reenactors best friend.

                            "General Lee's Army: From Victory to Collapse" by Joseph T. Glatthaar published by Free Press in 2008. If you posted on this thread, and you have not read this fine example of scholarship, I strongly encourage you either to purchase it (its fairly inexpensive) or check it out from your local library. It is chock full of enlightening chapters, including one on the Gettysburg campaign (in which members of the ANV did impress black Pennsylvanians) and another on Blacks and the Army.

                            Cheers!
                            Bill Backus

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                            • #44
                              Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

                              Never mind. I was wrong in pointing out that this thread was I read the correct books and you read the wrong books. And certainly this uplifting scholarly banter will lead to a grand meeting of the minds. yes, it will, I am sure.
                              Last edited by Old Reb; 05-26-2011, 07:30 PM.
                              Tom Yearby
                              Texas Ground Hornets

                              "I'd rather shoot a man than a snake." Robert Stumbling Bear

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                              • #45
                                Re: Interesting "Black Confederate" story

                                Well, FWIW, I don't see a battle of the books, but I do see some folks posting some interesting titles that look to be worth a look. Thanks all for helping me flesh out my Amazon wish list even further.
                                Warren Dickinson


                                Currently a History Hippy at South Union Shaker Village
                                Member of the original Pickett's Mill Interpretive Volunteer Staff & Co. D, 17th Ky Vol. Inf
                                Former Mudsill
                                Co-Creator of the States Rights Guard in '92

                                Comment

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