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  • #1

    Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

    I figured it would apply more to people on the other forum so I posted it there as well, but thought you all would be interested. A colleague sent me these photos (attached). This occured on the second shot ever fired from this weapon.
    Attached Files
    Jake Koch
    The Debonair Society of Coffee Coolers, Brewers, and Debaters
    https://coffeecoolersmess.weebly.com/

    -Pvt. Max Doermann, 3x Great Uncle, Co. E, 66th New York Infantry. Died at Andersonville, Dec. 22, 1864.
    -Pvt. David Rousch, 4x Great Uncle, Co. A, 107th Ohio Infantry. Wounded and Captured at Gettysburg. Died at Andersonville, June 5, 1864.
    -Pvt. Carl Sievert, 3x Great Uncle, Co. H, 7th New York Infantry (Steuben Guard). Mortally Wounded at Malvern Hill.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

    I was not aware of any fireable Indian made muskets. What brand is this? It looks like it actually sent a piece of barrel flying as shrapnel.
    Steve Sheldon

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

      Steve, I couldn't tell you the brand name off of the top of my head, however they have been around for a little while and their quality has been suspect to say the least. I think this shows that there are not fireable Indian muskets.
      Jake Koch
      The Debonair Society of Coffee Coolers, Brewers, and Debaters
      https://coffeecoolersmess.weebly.com/

      -Pvt. Max Doermann, 3x Great Uncle, Co. E, 66th New York Infantry. Died at Andersonville, Dec. 22, 1864.
      -Pvt. David Rousch, 4x Great Uncle, Co. A, 107th Ohio Infantry. Wounded and Captured at Gettysburg. Died at Andersonville, June 5, 1864.
      -Pvt. Carl Sievert, 3x Great Uncle, Co. H, 7th New York Infantry (Steuben Guard). Mortally Wounded at Malvern Hill.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

        Hallo!

        While I am "on record' as being of the more vocal opponents of these Indian made wall-hangers and fireplace decorators being sold and used as firearms... in brief and to over-generalize lads who are not fmailiar with firearms and forearm construction tend to be the lads who choose to use these things feeling them safe for blank and well as live firing.

        That "partisan" discussion aside...

        At first glance, the second image shows a "classic" obstructed barrel "catastrophic failure." A barrel obstruction, most likely, probably, a short-rammed ball, saw a build up pressure right behind it (in fornt of the sight where the barrel has bulged and the inner wall darkened. When the force of the charge reaches an obstruction, if the obstruction does not ge tmoved, the pressure goes sideways making a tell-tale
        "ring." If the obstruction does not yield in time, the "ring" bulges the barrel and bursts it. The hardness of the steel, and the way the "barrel" is made NUG sees it splinter like a cartoon gun.

        Over the years, I have seen or examined a dozen or more muzzleloading barrels burst in the same way by the catastropic failure caused by a short-rammed round or obstruction. There are also about half a dozen on display at my local BP shop. They are a mix of Italian and Spanish made barrels.

        Again, not "defending" Indian made non-guns with their seamlelss tubing "pseudo bareels."

        Others' mileage, knowledge, and safety will vary...

        Curt
        Curt Schmidt
        In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

        -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
        -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
        -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
        -Vastly Ignorant
        -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

          Looking back I forgot to clarify, from what I was told, this was a brand new weapon being fired at an event at Pleasant Hill, Louisiana - so it should have been firing blank rounds, and as far as I know it was. I guess that would make it even scarier if what Curt said is right - that somthing was in the barrel.
          Last edited by jake.koch; 05-19-2011, 05:09 PM.
          Jake Koch
          The Debonair Society of Coffee Coolers, Brewers, and Debaters
          https://coffeecoolersmess.weebly.com/

          -Pvt. Max Doermann, 3x Great Uncle, Co. E, 66th New York Infantry. Died at Andersonville, Dec. 22, 1864.
          -Pvt. David Rousch, 4x Great Uncle, Co. A, 107th Ohio Infantry. Wounded and Captured at Gettysburg. Died at Andersonville, June 5, 1864.
          -Pvt. Carl Sievert, 3x Great Uncle, Co. H, 7th New York Infantry (Steuben Guard). Mortally Wounded at Malvern Hill.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

            These pictures made the rounds today in the NPS, we have been having a number of discussions about these weapons lately and this really solidifies our view of them.
            Lee White
            Researcher and Historian
            "Delenda Est Carthago"
            "My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings, Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

            http://bullyforbragg.blogspot.com/

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

              My nephew decided last year that he wanted to get into CW reenacting and joined a local group. He told me he was going to purchase an Enfield. I only saw this weapon the other week, and I told him I would be scared to fire it. Looks like I was justified in my opinion. (I have forwarded the link to him.)

              Warren Dickinson
              Warren Dickinson


              Currently a History Hippy at South Union Shaker Village
              Member of the original Pickett's Mill Interpretive Volunteer Staff & Co. D, 17th Ky Vol. Inf
              Former Mudsill
              Co-Creator of the States Rights Guard in '92

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

                Gents,

                We've all talked about this in the past. But having handled and even owned some of these guns, I would never again own, fire, or stand beside someone firing, one of these guns. Despite what many of the providers of these guns may say, I believe that the units and individuals of our hobby need to shun or otherwise distance themselves from these guns. These guns, while in some cases interesting to some of our peers because they have replicated some models that the Italians have not, and for some the price is more attractive ARE NOT AS WELL MADE AS ITALIAN GUNS. This is not the first barrel burst incident to be reported in the last couple of years. In short, if it wasn't made in Italy, the USA or an original I personally believe it is dangerous garbage.

                -Sam Dolan
                Samuel K. Dolan
                1st Texas Infantry
                SUVCW

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

                  Gentlemen,

                  Without naming specific sources and retailers. A famously popular vendor of better made, mostly Italian, reproduction muskets is as of today selling their M1842 model for $750.00 and their standard Enfield for $650.00. Another vendor, pushing Indian made or unknown maker muskets is selling those same models for $475.00 and $430.00 respectively. Now, I don't know about you all, but I know that to me, personally, my fingers, or my hands, eyes, face...I don't know...life I guess, is worth at least $300.00 or $400.00 more than a $400.00 PakaIndiaStanada made "gun".

                  -Sam Dolan
                  Samuel K. Dolan
                  1st Texas Infantry
                  SUVCW

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

                    Unfortunately this isn't simply a case of "you get what you pay for", but instead "you and everyone around you gets what you pay for." I certainly hope those that choose to use them at events have their liability insurance up to date.
                    Dan Wambaugh
                    Wambaugh, White, & Company
                    www.wwandcompany.com
                    517-303-3609
                    Become our fan on Facebook by clicking HERE

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

                      In the memo I got about this today it said that the weapon in question was purchased in Little Rock. It didnt give the name of the supplier though.
                      Lee White
                      Researcher and Historian
                      "Delenda Est Carthago"
                      "My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings, Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

                      http://bullyforbragg.blogspot.com/

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

                        I apologize, I forgot to mention Little Rock. I got a lead from someone of the other forum. If I learn anything else I will certainly post it.
                        Jake Koch
                        The Debonair Society of Coffee Coolers, Brewers, and Debaters
                        https://coffeecoolersmess.weebly.com/

                        -Pvt. Max Doermann, 3x Great Uncle, Co. E, 66th New York Infantry. Died at Andersonville, Dec. 22, 1864.
                        -Pvt. David Rousch, 4x Great Uncle, Co. A, 107th Ohio Infantry. Wounded and Captured at Gettysburg. Died at Andersonville, June 5, 1864.
                        -Pvt. Carl Sievert, 3x Great Uncle, Co. H, 7th New York Infantry (Steuben Guard). Mortally Wounded at Malvern Hill.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

                          I feel these "guns" should be flat out banned in the hobby.
                          Robert Johnson

                          "Them fellers out thar you ar goin up against, ain't none of the blue-bellied, white-livered Yanks and sassidge-eatin'forrin' hirelin's you have in Virginny that run atthe snap of a cap - they're Western fellers, an' they'll mighty quick give you a bellyful o' fightin."



                          In memory of: William Garry Co.H 5th USCC KIA 10/2/64 Saltville VA.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

                            The thing about this that I don't understand is that you can shoot black powder out of PVC pipe with no problems as long as nothing creates to much back pressure (obstruction in the bore/shooting it live, I've been told you can even shoot it live out of the plastic pipe). The thing I don't understand is why if we can shoot BP through plastic pipe, then why can't we shoot it through a metal tube? Maybe someone could help me understand this. We should be only shooting powder through these things anyway.

                            I have a friend that has one of these type Enfields. I watched him double check to make sure it was good (before the event was started and AWAY from everyone else in line). We put triple the amount of powder called for down the barrel capped it and he pulled the trigger with no problems. He said the company that he got it from proofed them as well and it sure looks like they did as I was skeptical to say the least. I have another pard with the same musket. No problems. It would be interesting to know they why's and wherefores of this rifle blowing apart like this.

                            Pards,
                            Andrew Schultz

                            Possum Skinners Mess

                            Buzzards Mess

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

                              Andy,
                              Triple loading a weak weapon to check for it's strength is like tossing a match in a puddle to see if it's gas.

                              All this makes me glad I have a Parker Hale.
                              Patrick Landrum
                              Independent Rifles

                              Comment

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