Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

[Milliron]

Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

I feel these "guns" should be flat out banned in the hobby.

My guess is they soon will be as far as the NPS is concerned.

[Coatsy]

Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Moderator Note: Folks, I 100% understand the worry/concern about the safety issue. This is important to the hobby as a whole if indeed the worst case scenario is indeed true for all of these repros, but the fact that this was posted without full details is not a great thing. We are leaving this up for obvious reason, and we await the FULL STORY, not just bits and pieces. This subject is going to be left open so Mr. Koch can finish giving us all of the details.

Also, until the full story is relayed do not toss company names around.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Couple thoughts:
1) PVC and plastic are not steel. They are different materials and behave differently. Just because someone has touched off a small explosion within a PVC or plastic pipe, with or without a projectile, and lived to tell about it and retained all of his digits, does not mean it is a good material for a musket barrel or that there is a valid comparison to the relative strength or suitability of some other material.

2) I am not a big believer in “self-proofing” barrels. You never know if the barrel will fail until it fails and you will never know if you’ve weakened the barrel in such a way that a future failure is more likely. Manufacturers’, I presume, have a staff of qualified engineers and metallurgists who follow proven procedures for proofing, followed by examination of the barrels by validated test methods to check for microscopic cracking and other damage… magnaflux, I believe its called, if I recall correctly from my days in the automotive industry.

Face it, folks. Muskets cost $750-$1000 now. While some might say that will be the death of the hobby, the Rev War and 1812 crowd have been paying those prices for YEARS. Latch on to those Italian muskets on the used market and the Miroku repros from Japan while you can. Landrum’s Parker Hale is a thing of beauty!

I also believe that, if we resign ourselves to spending that kind of spondulex, other options become available, such as parts guns, custom builds, and other American-made options. Personally, I feel that an accurate reproduction adds to my experience in the hobby, not just in appearance of the weapon, but in feel and performance. Try lunging out in bayonet drill with an original or an accurately-reproduced US M’61, versus a Euroarms tank-barreled repop and you’ll get the gist.

[Matt Woodburn]

Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

OK, let's see here. My dad taught me years ago to not shop for the best price on parachutes or SCUBA equipment. That made sense to me. And now the nickle ninety-eight Indian made muskets are going to get added to dad's list. Why would anyone want to hold a suspect musket in their hands while explosive goes off in it, let alone the though of firing it in ranks close to friends? How much cheaper can these muskets be? $200? You're risking your left hand and maybe more for $200! Really? Must not think much of yourself or those around you if you're using one of those. Would someone take some photos of the markings on them and how to tell them apart from the good manufacturers, so those of us who do weapons inspections can identify them and reject them from use. I suspect with the 150ths coming upon us, we'll be around the mainstream who is known for spending less and cutting corners, so the chances of one of these being in the ranks may go up. I want to root them out for the safety of all of us.

Trying to Avoid Schrapnel in the Head Mess,

[maillemaker]

Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

On the subject of self-proofing firearms, this is a particularly bad idea, as has been noted by others. I remember reading an account how even in period these things were fired for proofing in a bunker using a string to pull the trigger. You certainly don't want to be holding the thing during proof testing.

[jake.koch]

Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

I apologize for posting this without the complete run of facts. I didn't intend to create a firestorm with this. We recieved the pictures yesterday here at the park, and they matched the story we had from a visitor earlier in the year who was at the event where the accident took place. I am mainly concerned for our park visitors, volunteers, and staff, not to mention all living historians. I am waiting for a reply on an email from someone who was there. As soon as I hear back I will certainly post the information and clarify this. Once again I do apologize for presenting this without all of the information.

The email I recieved, and am assuming is the same one the other NPS people on here saw was sent to our Black Powder Trained Rangers. It had the pictures, stated the weapon was Indian made, that it was the second shot fired from the weapon at an event at Pleasant Hill, Louisiana, and was sold in Little Rock. Like I mentioned, it backed up the information I recieved from a visitor earlier in the spring. Since most of our Interp staff deals with living history demonstrations in one form or another this certainly concerned us, and they passed it on to those of us that have not yet gone to the Black Powder Certification course. I posted this on both forums after getting permission from the black poder guys thinking it may draw out more information that we did not have, especially hoping that perhaps someone who was at this event could fill us in on what happened with more detail. Once again, I did not intend to start a firestorm, and should have been more clear that I was looking for information.

[ACo.]

Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Herr Schmidt, as always, makes some excellent points. It could well have been a short rammed bullet or other obstruction that caused this. However, I am also concerned about the condition of the bore, it is far from a "smooth bored" firearm, it appears to be, at best, to be very rough, that is, unfinished.

Please remember that the Indian craftsmen are very capable and are quite able to manufacture high quality goods. However, they do make what they are told to make, either by their supervisors or their customers. When we say that the Indian-made firearms are of poor quality of unknown materials we are partially right. There are no specifications published for their barrels and that is the specific part we should be worried about when it fails. They are not intended to pass proof. According to Indian law these are "imitation firearms" - they are not intended to be fired as made. That is why there is never a flash hole in the case of flintlocks or a flash channel for percussion firearms when these are exported from India and into this country, Canad or Europe. India has rigid proof laws and these are not made to stand proof according to their laws, the makers are protected by Indian law. This is the reason that these "guns" are so inexpensive.

For more information on Indian firearms laws see "INDIAN ARMS RULES 1962" at:

http://gunaccessory.com/LAWS/arms_rules.htm

Pay particular attention to section numbers 21 (Conversion, repair, text, sale, etc) and 22 (Proof testing of firearms). Number 25 (Identification marks on fire-arms) also gives some interesting information. The Indian makers of these "imitation firearms" conform to Indian law and they can not be held responsible for any failure of an imitation firearm by their government or courts. The responsibility for failure lies with the party (importer, vendor or individual) who makes the operable and/or proofs them or recommends that these are safe. That being said, there are a large number of these guns in use throughout the reenacting community (17th - 19th Centuries) and in some segments of the shooting sports as well and few have failed - so far. Personally I wouldn't have one nor would I like to be standing near one. But then that is just my opinion.

[J. Donaldson]

Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

There has been mention of a short-rammed round or other projectile in the barrel. I am not familiar with the ballistics of our era, as I do not live shoot, so I have a question I'd like to ask for clarity, and not to throw gas on the fire. In the opinion of people more knowledgeable than I, could mud in the muzzle of the weapon have caused this issue?

[guad42]

Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

I want to throw in a couple more thoughts on this, please forgive me. You know when I first joined this forum a few years ago I read something that I believe Paul wrote about what it means to sign your name to something. There's honor in that and you're also putting your name on statements you make and things you stand for. Now, it may be a stretch of the concept, but the same goes for people who make things and then place or stamp their name on something - it means that they're standing by their product and taking some responsibility for their trade.

The Italian companies do this with their muskets and other guns (sometimes to our chagrin) but the point is that they stand by their product. Even the Japanese and Spanish companies usually stamped something on their guns.

But these other folks often don't, at least not in a way that's obvious. To some of us that might even be appeal - but to me I feel like I'm dealing with someone who isn't willing to stand by their product, or sign their name to something that they've said or done.

There are people, businesses, corporations, large and small that farm their work out overseas. They can save money and they can cut corners. There are also companies, which will go unmentioned here that bring in product from these countries that is simple not as well made or good - and they satisfy a certain market and sell these products to people who either don't know better or simply want to safe a few bucks.

Yes, the Italian arms are oversized, the metal is dense, and the stocks are often too thick - and some of us spend money to correct that - but at the end of the day these arms ARE GUNS! They were made to shoot and stand a certain level of service. Personally, I do not believe the Indian arms are in the same category and I'll go ahead and say it - THEY'RE NOT GUNS!

I don't know about you, but if a company exports a flintlock that doesn't have a vent drilled in it and company here tells you - well all you have to do is drill a vent - well, partner, you ain't buying a gun, you're BUYING A NICE DECORATION. If it ain't got a vent lads it wasn't meant to shoot.

And this business of self-proofing in the field???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is plain clownery. That's like proofing a hand grenade and not throwing it.

Signed,

Sam Dolan
Proudly of "A" Co. First Texas Infantry
aka, the niftiest bunch of Confederates West of Needles.

[JimKindred]

Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

There has been mention of a short-rammed round or other projectile in the barrel. I am not familiar with the ballistics of our era, as I do not live shoot, so I have a question I'd like to ask for clarity, and not to throw gas on the fire. In the opinion of people more knowledgeable than I, could mud in the muzzle of the weapon have caused this issue?

An obstruction in a barrel can cause that issue in a modern firearm as well as period firearms.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Hallo!

Sorry to be slow in replying. My PC crashed last night and would not reboot.

Yes, mud or dirt in a muzzle can cause a catastrophic failure of the barrel, if the obstruction does ot move and allow the pressure "out" (the same is true for any obstruction. If it does not move, or if the gas pressure cannot moved aorund it, the presure is exerted sideways and the barrel can blow.

The NUG tell-tale feature of an obstructed bore is the "ring" or pressure ball beind the obstruction (there used to be a CW cannon barrel in the Gettysburg NPS that was short-charged, bulged, and cracked around the ring.)

"Proofing" with a higher than normal charge, say classically a double charge and a double ball, is a standard "proof" that demonstrates that the barrel was capable of withstanding that load, that time. IF a barelis made of proper barrel materials, and made as a barrel should be made, it is likely NOT to fail under normal use at less than the proof charge. A "tube" dusguised as a barrel, may survive a proof, but possibly, maybe receive micro damage or fractures that will grow over time leading to a bursting somewhere down the road- maybe the next firing, maybe the 100th, maybe the 500th, maybe not at all.

Looking at the images, I see a pressure bulge and scoring ahead of the rear sight. NUG, that would mark the place where the obstruction was, and where the barrel blew out sideways.

However, if thie Indian decorator/non-gun was used at a reenactment, and burst on the second blank round...I would speculate the cause to possibly be "hot powder." "Hot Powder" is what some lads are using die to assessibility of true blackpowder and or the cost. What it is blackpowder "cut" with commercial blasting powder. This creates a much higher pressure curve spike when burned. And that can create breech and barrel pressures that exceed the ability of the Indian so-called barrel to withstand.

Plus, as a BP weapon is fired, fouling builds up in the bore, reducing the bore diameter, and constricting the space which can cause pressure to build faster than it can be vented out of the vent or out of the muzzle.

Yes, up to a point, a piece of extruded mild steel conduit pipe, and even PVC pipe can "tolerate" low enough blackpowder charges as long as the charge is low enough NOT to build up pressures that stress and fail the steel or plastic (or in many early 19th century and prior, iron barrels).

And last, an unrelated to this.. is that one does not always need a large charge to do damage. Cowboy Action Shooters have experienced cylinder explosions in their Ruger revolvers. Now, Rugers are a fine American product and are built like a tank. But some lads using light undercharged powder charges, have blown out cylinders because there was not enough power to push out the bullet, and the pressure went "sideways" blowing the chamber wall.

Hopefully, this being reenacting related, the owner and more particularly the lads around him did not receive too much of the pipe bomb. But, with the general acceptance of these Indian decorators, it will take serious injury or death to someone other than the owner before the litigation and law suits shuts down this import industry or tries to ban them from from events.

Curt

[ACo.]

Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Andrew said:

"The thing about this that I don't understand is that you can shoot black powder out of PVC pipe with no problems as long as nothing creates to much back pressure (obstruction in the bore/shooting it live, I've been told you can even shoot it live out of the plastic pipe)."

Andrew, your information comes from a very unreliable source and should be forgotten as soon as possible.

[Yellowhammer Rebel]

Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Thank you sir. I could have been mis-informed and as always like to learn the rights and wrongs of it all.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Looking at the material on the inside of the "barrel" you can see that it is a casting made out of a low grade pot metal. He may as well have been shooting a pvc pipe barrel. Lets face it that "gun" was nothing more than a pipe bomb disguised as a farby Enfield.

[jake.koch]

Re: Indian made- Pictures are worth a thousand words.

I received the following email from the gentleman who took the pictures posted at the beginning of the thread. He was kind enough to get back to me with much more information than we had. He allowed me to post this, however I am leaving his name and contact information out so that he does not get a torrent of phone calls and emails. If he wishes me to add them I will edit it in later. For liability reasons I am leaving out the maker names and importation locations.
Mr. Koch, This is *************. I took the pictures in question on the counter of my sutler tent at Pleasant Hill, LA. We do business as ************* One of my specialities is on-site gunsmithing of the muskets and other black powder weapons.

The musket in question was purchased at a North Little Rock, ARK gunshop for the owner's first event. Sorry, I don't have his name or the name of the shop. I am uncertain as to the full sequence of events - but here is what they told me at the event:

When the musket failed to fire, the recruit's sergeant took the rifle and stepped out of line to clear it. Upon firing, the barrel burst and bent, and the wood of the forearm forward of the lockplate bolt disintegrated. You can also note the bent ramrod in the photos. The rifle's history was 2 rounds.

Two things stand out to me: First, when you enlarge the photo and focus on the remains of the barrel, the metal appears to be very grainy. The only bright non-grainy metal is just under the rear sight and just forward of the tang. Second, notice the internal concentric rings within the barrel. This was supposed to be a smooth bore musket. Please ask an expert if these internal rings constituted pressure points for breakage.
According to the circuit, there were two other Indian Zouave muskets that burst in Florida. The reenactor whose Indian musket burst at Niblet's Bluff (state unknown) stopped by my tent at Pleasant Hill and I spoke with him briefly. Sorry, I didn't get his name.

The command structure of the Texas reenactor group talked about banning Indian muskets in one year. I don't know if this has been adopted.

The point of entry for these guns is normally ************* of ************* or ************* of **********. I have called ************* for information on their proofing process. Based on those conversations, it does not appear that there is a governrment-approved proofing process for these muskets. Compare this to the Italiian made muskets, where all must satisfy the government proofing standards and be marked accordingly.

Over the past two years, I have had at least 20 Indian muskets brought to me for repair. The problems have varied from broken cold castings to poor or no tempering of the lock parts. I have also seen quite a few nipple hole threads that have broken off. Because of these observations early on, I do not carry parts for these muskets, nor do I service them.