rifle musket or rifled musket?

[maillemaker]

My search skills are failing, though it seems one cannot search for a phrase here by using quotes?

Anyway, I seem to remember a thread about whether the term was "rifle musket" or "rifled musket" and someone then posted a historical quote using the correct term.

What do these terms mean, and are the interchangeable?

Steve

[dixieflyer]

Re: rifle musket or rifled musket?

Steve,
I could very well be wrong on this, but as I remember:

- a "riflemusket" is a weapon such as an Enfield or '61 Springfield that was manufactured with rifling in place, and

- a "rifled musket" is a smoothbore that has undergone a process to have the barrel rebored to have rifling.

I may be wrong, or I may have destroyed those brain cells at some point.

[maillemaker]

Re: rifle musket or rifled musket?

That is the gist of what I remembered the argument being, but then someone posted a historical quote talking about "rifled muskets" that were obviously rifled from the start. But maybe I'm misremembering.

[dixieflyer]

Re: rifle musket or rifled musket?

Steve, I could well be wrong, but that is how *I* use those terms. Your mileage may vary.

[stri volunteer]

Re: rifle musket or rifled musket?

I always thought it was as laid out in the first post, rifle-musket is the .58 cal three bander of the
Enfield/Springfield variety, and a "rifled" musket was a smoothbore musket that had been rifled
later on.

But the Claud E Fuller 1958 book "The Rifled Musket" is all about the US 1861 Springfield, so maybe it
is a more recent distinction?

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: rifle musket or rifled musket?

In the context of the period:
A "rifle" is longer than a carbine but shorter than a musket and has a rifled barrel.
A "musket" is a full-lenght arm, typically having a smooth bore.
A "rifle musket" is a full-length arm manufactured with a rifled barrel. It could be thought of as a rifle with the length of a musket.
A "rifled musket" is a musket that has been rifled. Which is to say that the bore of the musket has had rifling added to it. It is still a musket, but it has been rifled.
An "altered musket" is generally a musket that was originally manufactured with a flintlock firing system, but has been modified to use a percussion firing system. An altered musket may, or may not have been rifled during the alteration process.

These are the terms you will see used generally (but not universally) in period reports.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: rifle musket or rifled musket?

Hallo!

Already covered well... but don't forget "musketoon" and the dreaded so-called "artilery rifle" or the Richmond made "Short Rifle." ;) :)

I would just add that this is the "ideal" of what it should be. Meaning, when one reads Period accounts, even by Ordnance folks and officers who should "know better' versus everyday volunteer say farmers turned soldiers... not everyone uses the terms as they should be used in BOTH their official writings or in theri casual writings such as letters home and after teh WAr remembrances.

And then some like to tease when non-artilleryists use the term "gun" for something other than a cannon. ;) :)

Curt
Rifled and Sighted Mess

[gsusat]

Re: rifle musket or rifled musket?

Rifled Musket vs Rifle Musket.

I have looked a some sources both period and modern, and have some thoughts.

Sec of War report for 1856-7 does use the term "rifle musket 1855"
The inventory report dated 11-12-1859 uses the term "Rifled musket cal. 58".
Various correspondance printed verbatum in Fullers book uses "Rifled Musket" to refer to the 58 cal arms. Here are three examples :

May 7,1861 J. Gorgas submitted a table of arms on hand when arsenals were taken possession of by southern forces .... "Rifle Muskets US Model" ....

11-12-1860 Gov. Gist requested from Col Craig the quota of arms for 1861 to be " " rifled muskets and apengages, new pattern, caliber 58." " The original note has the phrase in quotes.

Lastly the report of Arms seized and destroyed in the campaign from Feb to March 1865. The report was complied by Capt T. G. Baker Chief of Ordnance, Mil Div of the Miss. to Gen Sherman

" Yager Musket 960
Palmetto Rifles 500
Remington rifles 100
Mississippi Rifles 200
U S Muskets, Caliber .69 3,440
Enfield Rifled Muskets 1,900
Enfield rifles (short sword bayonet) 2,000
Austrian rifled muskets (old) 500
Whitney rifles (old) 50
Springfield rifled muskets 100
Morse rifles (South Carolina) 400 "

That previous listing has been used by some to suggest that the Zouave rifles were issued. But the entire lot of Zouave rifles was sold post war in one of the surplus sales. Still the list shows some of the confusion in trying to classify weapons. Yager musket - what is that.

And on to modern books as someone pointed out in anther thread Claud Fuller book "The Rifled Musket" primarly deals with the 58 caliber series of weapons. In this book of his Firearms of the Confederacy his plate showing the 1855 series of arms refers to the "1855 Musket".

Robert Reilly in his book "United States Military Small Arms 1816-1865" has a few lines on the subject. ... " Only these arms (1842 that were rifled) , specifically, should be refered to as "Rifled Muskets " and in spite of the fact that this term has often been used in conjunction with the .58 caliber arms, the proper terminology for these, and that offically designated is "Rifle-Musket" page 70

His book was first published in 1970

In my quick search through a few sources both terms were applied to both rifled 69 cal muskets and the 58 cal series of arms. So in my opinion while that distinctions seems pretty consistant today - it does not seems to be so during the period.

To borrow a phrase - you mileage may vary.

[ironbrigade6]

Re: rifle musket or rifled musket?

George,
I know that there are cases in which units (especially in regiments of German decent) that "jager rifles" was a name given to what we know as "the Mississippi Rifle" becuase of its resemblance to the short German rifle. In the 1862 4th quarter ordnance return, the 63rd PVI listed their weapons as being "jager rifles".

[Rob Weaver]

Re: rifle musket or rifled musket?

Is it possible that the "Jager musket" is the short Lorenz?

[gsusat]

Re: rifle musket or rifled musket?

In thinking about Jager muskets, I wonder if they might be Palmetto muskets - with brass barrel bands like the Mississippi rifles. Palmetto rifles were in the list so perhaps there were some Palmetto muskets there as well. Jager rifles is a terms used for Mississippi rifles and perhaps he just missed the on the musket part. The next three listings are 1841 rifles. I make the assumption about the Remington rifles since the 1863 Remington rifles were still in storage. Still it highlights how the original inventory can have information' but not specific enough to indicate clearly what weapons there were there.

[Garryowen]

Re: rifle musket or rifled musket?

Did Remington make contract 1861 Springfields?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: rifle musket or rifled musket?

Hallo,

Yes he/they did.

He had originally received a contract on August 20, 1862, but was busy with contract rifles and revolvers, and the contract was allowed to lapse unfilled.

He wrangled a December 14, 1863 contract and delivered 40,000 M1861's between May 31, 1864 and May 24, 1866.

Tis a bit complicated, and as Remington did with his "M1841" contract that turned into the M1862 Contracty Rifle (aka now "Zouave"), he included some M1863's with 1865 dated lockplates as part of it.

They were all accepted likely due to political pull, but had minor faults in workmanship and so were at prices below standard.

Curt