Rogers & Spencer Army revolvers

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo!

Yeah, this one requires a thinking cap...

Rogers, Spencer & Company of Willowdale, NY had Henry Rogers purchase the rights to the Austin Freeman patent, and kinda/sorta built a new back end for their Pettengill Army revolver to make the "Rogers and Spencer" Army revolver. ;)
They were able to secure a contract for 5000 on November 29, 1864 with the first delivery of 500 to be made in January 1865 with the same number delivered each month until the 5000 were done.
This they did, and the last 500 were delivered in September of 1865.
None of the 5000 were issued, their being stored in New York City until sold off at auction for, IIRC, 25 cents each in 1901. The lot was bought by Bannerman who, IIRC, sold them for $2.85.

But 5800 were produced, the odd 800 being sold on the civilian market.

Because they were not issued, the Rogers and Spencer revolvers are pooh-poohed for reenacting and living history.

And here is the Brain Teaser...

Edward Lambert owned a Rogers and Spencer Army revolver.

Lambert enlisted in 1861 in the 30th Massachusetts Infantry and was made a drummer. On December 31,1863, he reenlisted as a "Veteran Volunteer" possibly to collect more pay. He served as a drummer for the two enlistments, serving from 1861 to 1866.

And then there is this Rogers & Spencer, serial number 488.





Someone, sometime, wrote out slips of paper and carefully inserted them under the grips. The left grip paper reads "E. Lambert VOL 30 MASS carried this Revolver in Civil War November 14, 1861 August 15, 1866" The right grip paper reads "To be given to Earl Stevens By Edward Lambert".





The left grip bottom is marked "1861." The right grip bottom is marked "1866."



The right grip is marked "V 30th Mass."



The left grip carries the military inspector's cartouche of script "RPB" for Robert P. Barry.

Soooooo....

-an actual issue revolver for drummer boy Lambert and used late in the War? (and later "commemorated")

-a post War 1901 or later "surplus" revolver purchased by Lambert to remind him of a Colt or Remington say he actually carried and commemorate his service?

-or not having carried a side-arm at all, a post War 1901 or later "surplus" revolver puchased by a family member and so marked to commemorate their father's or grandfather's service in the War as a special birthday or Christmas present?

-or...

;) :)

Curt

[guad42]

Re: Rogers & Spencer Army revolvers

Curt,

Were any of the 800 sold on the Civilian Market as early as 1865 or 1866? Or were all of the 5800 R&Ss sold after 1901 through Bannerman's?

PS: Interestingly young Lambert was wounded at Cedar Creek in 1864, though not related to this pistol in any way.

-Sam Dolan

[fahnenschmied]

Re: Rogers & Spencer Army revolvers

I would think that one of the 800 sold on the civilian market would probably not have an inspectors stamp on the grips. I could see the guns that were rejected by the government inspectors entering the civil market as early as January of 1865....so I could see the possibility of one being privately purchased by an enlisted man....but not one with a cartouche. Perhaps mister Lambert also had an 1863 Remington rifle too?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Rogers & Spencer Army revolvers

Hallo!

"Were any of the 800 sold on the Civilian Market as early as 1865 or 1866? Or were all of the 5800 R&Ss sold after 1901 through Bannerman's?"


Dunno.

I have never (yet) come across any documentation of the R & S company's production time line.

The 5,000 number in the government contract is clear, but the "800" in the 5800 is a guesswork projection based upon known serial numbers and may or may not be right.

Rogers & Spencer of Utica NY had been making the C.S. Pettengill army, navy, and pocket revolvers and slightly improved versions into 1863. Rogers held his opwn patetn for improvements, and also bought out Austin Freeman's December 1862 patent for the Freeman Army Revolver which is the ancestor or "prototype" of the "R & S" army. Freemans were made at Hoard's Armory in Watertown between 1863 and 1864.

The contract for 5,000 army R & S's was November 1864.

The Rogers & Spencer army revovler is something of a mutant hybrid between the front end of a Pettengill and the rear end of a Freeman. Obiously some of the same machinery and tooling were used to make the new Rogers & Spencer revolvers.

The unanswered questions would be what time lapse ther was between the last Freeman revolver made in 1864 and the first Rogers & Spencer whether a civilian piece or did R & S go directly into the 5,000 batch government contract commencing work in January 1865. Or, did they make some or all of the (beleived) 800 BEFORE the government contract, duirng the contract, or after the contract?

Dunno.

IMHO, the Barry government inspector's cartouche dooms Lambert's R & S as one of the 5,000 batch sold to Bannerman in 1901.

Others' mileage will vary..

Curt

[rogue]

Re: Rogers & Spencer Army revolvers

Just in passing, it is a shame this weapon did not see more use during the war. I shot a reproduce worked on by Tom Ball while in the NSSA and it was a joy to shoot. Fit my big beefy hand better than a Colt or Remington. Got no medals to show, but a fun shooter, pointed naturally.
As far as your quandary about when your R&S was used, wartime or no, post war memories of the vets often faded as truth and fiction merged. One of my first purchases years ago was an original Maynard with initials and the year"1901" carved in the stock. I bought this from the elderly son of a veteran who claimed it was carried throughout the war by his father. Research later showed that private Foskett served in company E of the 113th Illinois, a foot soldier, not mounted, and not Maynarderdized either. As the years past, the stories grew. The late CW historian James Street once said that your grandmothers knee was a great place to hear stories, but a terrible place to learn history.
Steve Sullivan

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Rogers & Spencer Army revolvers

Hallo!

One of my favorites was the flintlock musket carried by my desk partner's great-great-great-great grandfather during the Revolutionary War. (And he was embarrassed to have played Cowboys and Indians with it as a kid, shooting off paper roll caps under the hammer.)

I invited him over one one to see it. It was a late model U.S. Model 1873 "Trapdoor" Springfield with an "1894" surcharge in the stock.

BUT, it is joy when Family History does align with Actual History.

Curt
Whose grandmother told of how my great-grandfather, a farrier in the Germany cavalry of the early 1870's, was knighted by the Empress and given the title of "von." (Which he dropped in emigrating in 1874).