Infantry newbie unhappy about the AC's learning curve

[maillemaker]

Moderator Note: Posts pulled from the cavalry discussion "A Higher Standard" and moved here since they were really a side topic.

This forum was, in the words of my father, for people who "came a knowin', not a learnin'."

If everyone already knows, then what is there to discuss? What information is there to be shared if everyone already knows? Or is it supposed to just be a place where everyone can congratulate themselves on how much they know?

It should be relatively trivial to set a bar of knowledge as part of the new user registration process. You could show the user pictures of various pieces of equipment, which they would have to identify as being Confederate or Federal issue, or identify the date of manufacture, etc.. You could require new users to be sponsored by existing users.

Also the new user registration screen should explicitly tell potential new users that unless they have been reenacting for at least X years, they are probably not welcome here. And forum names should not contain any titles or descriptions that would suggest beginner questions.

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: A Higher Standard...

Steve,

I see by your join date (March 2011) that you are new here... so I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt. The A/C from 5-10 years ago would have eaten most the current members alive.

If someone doesn't know the difference between CS and Fed issues this is NOT the forum they need to be on. Years do not matter, experience does. I know guys who are in their 2nd or 3rd year who do it better than guys reenacting for 15 plus! The A/C is to share information with like minded individuals not coddle newbies. A member who is on here should not have to ask why a heart breast strap is inappropriate for use by an enlisted cavalryman or why we should only carry one revolver or should we attach or sabers to or saddles. We should be discussing such as proper uniforming to portray such and such unit at Chickamauga.

Guys need to be able to do a bit of research on their own and not come here to be spoon fed knowledge.

TEH

[maillemaker]

Re: A Higher Standard...

If someone doesn't know the difference between CS and Fed issues this is NOT the forum they need to be on. Years do not matter, experience does. I know guys who are in their 2nd or 3rd year who do it better than guys reenacting for 15 plus!

The suggestions I provided were merely suggestions to show that it would be trivial to create gateway questions to weed out new people who don't fit whatever requirements you want to impose. I'm sure you guys could come up with plenty of questions to keep the undesirables out. Or, like I also suggested, just require all new users to be sponsored by an existing user. Or you could close public registration altogether and make the forum invite-only.

The A/C is to share information with like minded individuals not coddle newbies.

The problem is you are are driving off like-minded newbies.

[AZReenactor]

Re: A Higher Standard...

The problem is you are are driving off like-minded newbies.

I don't think that would be a problem if the quality of discussion were elevated all round. Even newbies stepping into a room filled with deep intelligent discussion are usually astute enough to know when they are out of their depth. Like minded newbies are generally content to step back and listen and soak up the information from the active discussions while at the same time doing their homework off forum (books are great for this) to bring themselves up to a level where they can join in the discussion and contribute intelligently. This forum used to be filled with folks who were as passionate about research, material culture, and skill development off the field as they were about dressing up and playing soldier (maybe even more so).

Sadly the last few years it does seem that the conversations here have gotten shallower and shallower to the point where some one popping in and blurting out, "What would you folks recommend I do for a generic Confederate soldier for my belt, cartridge box, and cap box? Should I use shoulder-sling mounted boxes, or waist belt? What sort of buckle should I have on my waist belt?" doesn't seem so out of place, even in this forum. When the conversations were deeper it was easier for newcomers to realize just how intrusive such a low brow, basic question seemed in this forum. Its akin to walking into a room of NASCAR Mechanics and asking for advice on how to change the oil on a car. While many experts will often enthusiastically share information with a promising novice on an individual basis they usually resent the intrusion on time spent with their peers to do so. If enough newbies pop into a forum to keep asking the most basic mundane questions pretty soon you start seeing the other novices (who really should still be learning) jumping in to excitedly answer the seemingly easy questions while the real experts move on to a new venue where they can discuss things at their level without the distractions. Pretty soon despite the noise and chatter all the experts have left and the conversation drains down until there is really nothing that makes the forum as useful for getting answers as it once was. I don't think those of us who have been here a while really want to see that continue happening to the AC. With the enthusiasm that the 150th anniversary events are likely to generate that is a real probability unless the members of the forum elevate the quality among themselves and keep it elevated. If someone is trolling for basic information steer them to a forum where that is the standard level of discussion, don't feed them here or you'll just get more of the same. Moderators try to do this to some extent but it is really up to the community to decide what level of conversations they want to have.

The AC used to be a kind of teachers' lounge or graduate level study group where experts met together to discuss their craft and increase their own expertise without having to answer the droll questions of people who may want to learn, but who have not yet put in the effort to bring their expertise up to a level to contribute beneficially to the community discussions. Personally I think the AC (even the cavalry forum) shouldn't be about asking where to buy the best gear but a place where serious students of the materials, methods, and men of the era can be bring their research to light and subject their findings to peer review by people they respect and recognize as being equally serious and enthusiastic for the subject. Sure we can always go back to email, private discussions, and other venues for this (many already have), but perhaps reclaiming the forum and insisting on more depth can help bring the AC back for more useful and unique discussions. In that regard, I see this conversation in the cavalry forum taking the lead in a very good direction. We just need to keep this momentum. It is easy to talk about how things ought to be but takes a willingness to do real work and disciple to get them there.

How about something like a detailed discussion filled with minutia on just what types of large rowel Texas spurs would be appropriate for the Imprisoned on The Frontier event later this year? How about some detailed discussions on what drill manuals the 11th Illinois or Forest's Cavalry were following at Shiloh? Talking about such things could be a whole lot more useful than nudging and bitching about them at or after the event. Well researched minimum event guidelines are helpful and valuable but they are just a starting point, not the end goal of an authentic minded reenactor when preparing for an event.

[maillemaker]

Re: A Higher Standard...

I don't think that would be a problem if the quality of discussion were elevated all round.

If you have new people eager to do what you do, but you shun them, then eventually no one will do what you do. If that's not a problem for you, well, then that's that.

Even newbies stepping into a room filled with deep intelligent discussion are usually astute enough to know when they are out of their depth. Like minded newbies are generally content to step back and listen and soak up the information from the active discussions while at the same time doing their homework off forum (books are great for this) to bring themselves up to a level where they can join in the discussion and contribute intelligently.

Other newbies take the opportunity in the presence of people who's knowledge they respect, admire, and wish to gain to speak to those people and ask questions. Especially when those people congregate in a public place.

Sadly the last few years it does seem that the conversations here have gotten shallower and shallower to the point where some one popping in and blurting out, "What would you folks recommend I do for a generic Confederate soldier for my belt, cartridge box, and cap box? Should I use shoulder-sling mounted boxes, or waist belt? What sort of buckle should I have on my waist belt?" doesn't seem so out of place, even in this forum.

I have asked some of those very questions. To be fair, I was misled by the description of the "Camp of Instruction" forum, which suggests that it is a place for beginners to ask basic questions. To my mind, such questions can be easily answered by those who wish to answer, and ignored by those who don't.

The very worst thing that you can do is to crush the enthusiasm of someone who is eager to be like you and do what you do.

When the conversations were deeper it was easier for newcomers to realize just how intrusive such a low brow, basic question seemed in this forum. Its akin to walking into a room of NASCAR Mechanics and asking for advice on how to change the oil on a car.

Of course it depends on the venue. If a group of NASCAR mechanics were in a public place where they would expect anyone to show up and ask questions, especially if there were a sign on the door that said, "For beginners to NASCAR, Automobiles, or Performance to ask and find answers to more "basic" questions.", then it would be quite different than if they were in an ASME classroom.

While many experts will often enthusiastically share information with a promising novice on an individual basis they usually resent the intrusion on time spent with their peers to do so. If enough newbies pop into a forum to keep asking the most basic mundane questions pretty soon you start seeing the other novices (who really should still be learning) jumping in to excitedly answer the seemingly easy questions while the real experts move on to a new venue where they can discuss things at their level without the distractions. Pretty soon despite the noise and chatter all the experts have left and the conversation drains down until there is really nothing that makes the forum as useful for getting answers as it once was.

I have been on many other online forums where the levels of experience range from rank amateurs making armor out of scrap road signs and claw hammers to one of the top armorers in the world who's suits go for $20K or more. There is no practical limit to the number of conversations that can be held on an online forum. If one sees a thread of conversation that is of no interest to them or that one deems beneath themselves to contribute to it is a simple matter to simply ignore it and leave it to others.

I don't think those of us who have been here a while really want to see that continue happening to the AC. With the enthusiasm that the 150th anniversary events are likely to generate that is a real probability unless the members of the forum elevate the quality among themselves and keep it elevated. If someone is trolling for basic information steer them to a forum where that is the standard level of discussion, don't feed them here or you'll just get more of the same. Moderators try to do this to some extent but it is really up to the community to decide what level of conversations they want to have.

As I said, the best way to do this is to screen the people you allow to post here, so that they can demonstrate some level of competency before you allow them to post. I like The Egyptian Homeguard's suggestion of providing a photograph of yourself in kit and have some sort of judging committee that approves or disapproves the new user.

The AC used to be a kind of teachers' lounge or graduate level study group where experts met together to discuss their craft and increase their own expertise without having to answer the droll questions of people who may want to learn, but who have not yet put in the effort to bring their expertise up to a level to contribute beneficially to the community discussions.

See, to my mind, seeking out the experts that you want to emulate and asking them questions is putting in the effort. They could simply ask any layperson or just ring up a random vendor of "civil war goods" and buy what they offer. But instead they took the time to find the experts to ask.

I think a big part of the problem here is a lot of folks just resent new people who have not spent hours doing research. I had a friend who when in medical school was doing his internship. This was about the time the news was doing reports on how dangerous it was that these interns worked very long hours, and that in reality they were not performing as well as they could if they had gotten more rest. My friend said that the establishment, run by older doctors, would not change the policy, as they had an attitude that if they had to suffer the long hours of internship to be doctors, then so should the new interns should have to also. I think very similar attitude runs prevalent here.

For my part, I have been doing living history of the medieval era for nearly 20 years. I have changed the state of the art of maille armour for reenactors. I've lectured on the subject of maille armour in London, Leeds, and Malta.

Recently, I turned my attentions to the era of the American Civil War. I sought out a forum of the best experts of the subject in the hopes of talking with them to learn about it. I sought out the kind of people that I wanted to be like. Sadly, the reception here has mostly been an admonition not to engage in discussion but to instead ponder the results of search engines or spend countless hours in my own research before I can participate.

So, I have given up on this forum as a place of discussion. One day soon I will be like you. But I won't be here.

Steve

[AZReenactor]

Re: A Higher Standard...

It looks like no reply is necessary. Thread closed.

So, I have given up on this forum as a place of discussion. One day soon I will be like you. But I won't be here.

Steve