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  • New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

    Hallo!

    This is just a quick summary of the anticipated new product line now that Pedersoli has taken over/bought out EuroArms.

    As the "details" go, prototypes have gone to the N-SSA's Small Arms Committee for review. Being a different hobby, I will not comment on that other than it appears "from long distance" that Pedersoli still appears to think/believe/operate under the impression that the N-SSA is the larger market for reproduction Civil War firearms. AND, is marketing the "new line" with the competitive shooter first in mind with PMG (Pedersoli Match Grade) standard depth button type rifling, a modified rear sight, and improved/machined/treated lock "internals.".

    Anyways, preliminary "intel" on the prototype P1853 "Enfield" RM and bogus P1858 Naval Rifle and M1861 "Springfield" and "Richmond" lines shows the reworked rifling, the addition of better markings on lockplates and barrels (they cannot remove the modern markngs required by Italian law, but they have moved them to the side). The Enfield has a "heavier' and less anemic hammer. And the stock of both Springfields and (incorrectly) Enfields is American Black Walnut. The Enfields have the proper 3rd Model barrel bands, but they are still incorrectly cyanide gassed colored. The M1861 Springfield wil still have the limited "1861" dates.

    Fit and finish, with greater Quality Control, appears to be to Pedersoli standards and above the random EuroArms'. However, with just a prototype or three in some lads hands, that will be hard to judge but I suspect Pedersoli will maintain their NUG higher than EuroArms or Armi Sport QC standards or lack of them.

    Prototypes will be shared with some lads after their introduction at the "Shot Show," January 17-20, 2012.

    The first of the offerings will be:

    SPRINGFIELD 1861 US MUSKET .58, @ $1,282.00
    RICHMOND 1862, TYPE III, .58, @ $1,218.00
    ENFIELD 3 BAND P1853, .577, @ $1,240.00
    ENFIELD 2 BAND P1858, .577, @ $1,162.00

    And yes, these will still need so-called "defarbing" or "de-farb" services.

    My intent and purpose is to share and update lads, as to what is changing and what is coming... NOT to be political or controversial. (Well, when it comes to controversial and heretical, not any more than usual.... : )

    Curt
    Curt Schmidt
    In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

    -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
    -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
    -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
    -Vastly Ignorant
    -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

  • #2
    Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

    $1,240 for a P-53 that will still need defarb work??

    Curt, I think I'll buy your original instead for just a few bucks more.

    Thanks for the update though.

    Pards,
    Rich
    Rich Libicer
    Fugi's Brown Water Mess

    6th North Carolina - 150th First Manassas, July 2011
    4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Valverde, February 2012
    6th Mississippi Adjunct - 150th Shiloh, April 2012
    4th Texas Dismounted, Co. C - 150th Glorieta Pass, May 2012
    21st Arkansas Adjunct - 150th Prairie Grove, December 2012
    5th Confederate, Co. C - 150th Chickamauga, September 2013
    Haitus...... Until Now

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    • #3
      Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

      Originally posted by Rich Libicer View Post
      $1,240 for a P-53 that will still need defarb work??

      Curt, I think I'll buy your original instead for just a few bucks more.

      Thanks for the update though.

      Pards,
      Rich
      My thoughts exactly. Why not hold-out on cash to get an original for that price? Does Pedersoli know how much they are charging for these in America and how non-competitive pricewise they are? Used muskets (with possible defarbs done to them already) are available secondhand too... ugh. The price of reenacting just went up again.
      Johnny Lloyd
      John "Johnny" Lloyd
      Moderator
      Think before you post... Rules on this forum here
      SCAR
      Known to associate with the following fine groups: WIG/AG/CR

      "Without history, there can be no research standards.
      Without research standards, there can be no authenticity.
      Without the attempt at authenticity, all is just a fantasy.
      Fantasy is not history nor heritage, because it never really existed." -Me


      Proud descendant of...

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

        Why not just watch football on the couch and daydream about a P-53?

        Greg Starbuck
        The brave respect the brave. The brave
        Respect the dead; but you -- you draw
        That ancient blade, the ass's jaw,
        And shake it o'er a hero's grave.


        Herman Melville

        http://www.historicsandusky.org

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

          Seeing those prices makes me really, really glad that I already have my own M1842, M1861 and P53. The only time I'll have spend more than $1000 on a civil war era musket will be on an original.
          Kenny Pavia
          24th Missouri Infantry

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

            Curt,

            Thanks for passing those along, having followed some of the videos and news coming out I had been "waiting in the wings" to see what the ultimate price would be. I think Pedersoli has a hard road ahead of them. With the availability of custom made rifles and muskets, both on the second hand and new made markets, I can't see the N-SSA shooters flocking to Pedersoli to shell out prices like they are asking. Forget about the re-enactor market, they have completely priced themselves out of it.

            The ramifications of this are really what interest me. The options available to the person looking for a musket will be more limited than ever. With Pedersoli removing Euroarms from the market, and then pricing their products out of contention, the only option will be Armi Sport, or a second hand musket. I have it on good authority that the Armi Sport Enfields are improving with each batch (still a long way to go, but that's something.) The price for a NIB musket will likely be around $650, and $900 for a defarbed musket. Used untouched muskets will likely command $500-$600, with used defarbed Italian muskets priced around $700-$750. So the choices for a NEW fully defarbed musket will be either $900 for an AS, or somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,400 for a Pedersoli.

            This is not consistent with inflation, and I don't believe for a minute that the market will bear it.

            The importers of the Indian muskets are licking their lips right now, and I can honestly see that being where the mainstream re-enactors go.

            Meanwhile, the parts alone for a custom built 1861 Springfield run about $800. I have a feeling that those with the skills to assemble these far superior reproductions will emerge as the dominant force to produce authentic firearms for the campaigner community. I imagine that a superb quality custom made musket could be retailed for less than a NIB Pedersoli, certainly less than a defarbed one would cost.

            Lots of things to consider, it will be interesting to see how the firearms market develops in the next two years.
            Dan Wambaugh
            Wambaugh, White, & Company
            www.wwandcompany.com
            517-303-3609
            Become our fan on Facebook by clicking HERE

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            • #7
              Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

              Like you, Dan, I'm interested to see how this plays out in the hobby at-large.

              The sad part is, with just a little more effort, the Pedersoli could have been a great repro. Simply get the stock contours and profiles right, and replace the anemic trigger and trigger guard. While a very minor issue, the snail on the bolster of the barrel could have been reshaped in a couple minor ways to improve it. I'm impressed they beefed up the hammer! That was a good call on their part.

              Given that Pedersoli has priced themselves out of the market, folks will be forced to other options. Dan, I believe that you will be proven correct and we will see the mainstream moving toward Indian/Paki muskets. This will be a sad development, if it happen. Safety issues aside, those muskets are just not good reproductions... they're not reproductions at all! I saw the paki version of the US "1816" recently and it looked like a boat oar with a flintlock on it. Really nothing to it; it was just intended to be a prop.

              Hopefully, Armi-Sport will continue to improve and will be able to fill the void. My "pie in the sky" dream would be to see some small to medium size American maker step into the market with a high end repro that truly "gets it right".

              For me for now, I'm sticking with custom builds, parts guns, and restorations.
              John Wickett
              Former Carpetbagger
              Administrator (We got rules here! Be Nice - Sign Your Name - No Farbisms)

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

                It is astonishing how ignorant Pedersoli is about what they are rebuilding. To use American walnut on a European musket is an unnecessary expense and it is incorrect too. The price is a nuisance! Also the point that they still ignore the demands of the reenacment community. Believe it or not. Although Italy is just two countries away from here the muskets are much more expensive here in Germany than in the US and I am sure they will cost about 1200 Euro which is ca. 1560$. For that money an original is not far away any more!
                Jan H.Berger
                Hornist

                German Mess
                http://germanmess.de/

                www.lederarsenal.com


                "Und setzet ihr nicht das Leben ein, nie wird euch das Leben gewonnen sein."( Friedrich Schiller)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

                  Originally posted by J.H.Berger View Post
                  Also the point that they still ignore the demands of the reenacment community.
                  Jan,

                  Believe or not, the reenacting community is not who is driving the train on this market, it is the competitive shooting crowd. The manufacturers in the NSSA find a long established competitive body to contact about future production needs and wants. The requirements of the NSSA are all too often much different than that of the reenacting community. In the reenacting world with hundreds of various groups that do not seem to get along well with each other how would a manufacturer determine who to contact for the input?
                  Jim Kindred

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

                    To all,

                    One very important point of clarification to Herr Schmidts original post is that the N-SSA has not had any contact with Pedersoli concerning the approval or pre production review of any of their new Civil War firearms line.

                    Should any of you have questions or comments concerning the N-SSA small arms approval process, please feel free to contact me.

                    Regards,


                    Phil Spaugy
                    Deputy Commander
                    North South Skirmish Association.

                    pspaugy@aol.com
                    Regards,

                    Phil Spaugy
                    Union Guards
                    Co. A
                    19th Regiment
                    Indiana Volunteer Infantry
                    N-SSA

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

                      Originally posted by Philo View Post
                      To all,

                      One very important point of clarification to Herr Schmidts original post is that the N-SSA has not had any contact with Pedersoli concerning the approval or pre production review of any of their new Civil War firearms line.

                      Should any of you have questions or comments concerning the N-SSA small arms approval process, please feel free to contact me.

                      Regards,


                      Phil Spaugy
                      Deputy Commander
                      North South Skirmish Association.

                      pspaugy@aol.com
                      So who would be Pedersoli's POC if they found themselves needing to contact the NSSA for approval?
                      Jim Kindred

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

                        Just thinking out loud here, anyone with thoughts please chime in:

                        If Pedersoli's main focus was to bring a new and improved product line to the competitive shooters and they are the primary or only concern, why buy out Euroarms at all? Surely EA wasn't a "huge" player in the competitive shooting market, gearing their product line primarily to re-enactors. So why eliminate an entire product line, then release a new product at double the price and beg off the price increase by saying "these are for competitive shooters, not re-enactors, so the price is higher."

                        That's a lot like Porsche buying out Chevrolet, then the next year releasing a line of Porches and expecting everyone who would have bought a Chevy to pay twice and much to drive around a Porsche pickup truck.

                        The more I think about this the less sense it makes to me!
                        Dan Wambaugh
                        Wambaugh, White, & Company
                        www.wwandcompany.com
                        517-303-3609
                        Become our fan on Facebook by clicking HERE

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

                          Originally posted by JimKindred View Post
                          So who would be Pedersoli's POC if they found themselves needing to contact the NSSA for approval?
                          John Holland, who is the chair of the N-SSA's Small Arms Committee. Since John is not a member of this forum, he can be reached through the N-SSA bulletin board, which is linked off the N-SSA home page.

                          The N-SSA promotes the shooting of Civil War firearms and artillery and encourages the preservation and display of Civil War materials. The N-SSA works to accomplish these goals by conducting skirmishes; competitive, live firing of these Civil War firearms and artillery.
                          Regards,

                          Phil Spaugy
                          Union Guards
                          Co. A
                          19th Regiment
                          Indiana Volunteer Infantry
                          N-SSA

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

                            Originally posted by Dan Wambaugh View Post
                            Just thinking out loud here, anyone with thoughts please chime in:

                            If Pedersoli's main focus was to bring a new and improved product line to the competitive shooters and they are the primary or only concern, why buy out Euroarms at all? Surely EA wasn't a "huge" player in the competitive shooting market, gearing their product line primarily to re-enactors. So why eliminate an entire product line, then release a new product at double the price and beg off the price increase by saying "these are for competitive shooters, not re-enactors, so the price is higher."

                            That's a lot like Porsche buying out Chevrolet, then the next year releasing a line of Porches and expecting everyone who would have bought a Chevy to pay twice and much to drive around a Porsche pickup truck.

                            The more I think about this the less sense it makes to me!
                            So, ultimately, why did they do this, business-sense wise?

                            Possible explanations:

                            1) Price of raw materials
                            2) Euro/dollar relationship
                            3) "Because they can"... they hope they can get these prices.
                            4) Italian/EC regulations MIGHT have changed somehow (anyone know there?)
                            5) US import laws might have changed

                            Anyone out there can add-to, prove or deny this list?

                            JLLO
                            Johnny Lloyd
                            John "Johnny" Lloyd
                            Moderator
                            Think before you post... Rules on this forum here
                            SCAR
                            Known to associate with the following fine groups: WIG/AG/CR

                            "Without history, there can be no research standards.
                            Without research standards, there can be no authenticity.
                            Without the attempt at authenticity, all is just a fantasy.
                            Fantasy is not history nor heritage, because it never really existed." -Me


                            Proud descendant of...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

                              Originally posted by Johnny Lloyd View Post
                              So, ultimately, why did they do this, business-sense wise?

                              Possible explanations:

                              1) Price of raw materials
                              2) Euro/dollar relationship
                              3) "Because they can"... they hope they can get these prices.
                              4) Italian/EC regulations MIGHT have changed somehow (anyone know there?)
                              5) US import laws might have changed

                              Anyone out there can add-to, prove or deny this list?

                              JLLO
                              Eliminate one more level of competition.
                              Jim Kindred

                              Comment

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