New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Eliminate one more level of competition.

I just don't see it. I'm not going to name any real names here but hypothetically my company wouldn't buy out "Bob's mainstream sutlery" to eliminate competition. We don't draw on the same pool of customers. Sure, a mainstream re-enactor might buy a cap or a housewife from me at some point, but the guy who wants a $60 Pakistani sack coat isn't going to buy my $200 sack coat, even if I eliminated 50% of the vendors where they could have got one (as Pedersoli did with EA, leaving only Armi Sport as a source for mid-range muskets.)

Lamborghini competes with Ferrari, not with Chevrolet. Different products, price points, and pools of customers.

Could it be that they really just did not have any clue whatsoever who their market is? I imagine any company who thinks they can get away with a 100% price increase in a year's time for a product really has no clue who it is they're trying to sell to. Granted, the price increase for a higher quality of materials, better fit and finish, and a plethora of improvements can certainly be understood, but when a large portion of their customer base cannot tell the difference and truthfully, do not need the improvements (such as a match grade barrel) that again, just does not make any sense. Cosmetic changes necessary to make an arm authentic (basically improve the Euroarms product and take their market share) should not have cost considerably more than the original EA retail price, but the lion's share of this dramatic price increase is coming from features that are entirely superfluous to re-enactors. Why buy out a company to take their market share, then essentially throw that market share away by replacing that company's product line with ludicrously priced products?

All I know is that the community at large will not pay $1,300 for a new musket. A decade of doing USSS re-enacting where our Sharps rifles cost anywhere from $900-$1,200 taught me that. I also know that if I were an executive at Armi Chiappa right now, I would think that Christmas had come early.

[Dbackfed]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Dan, any chance you know what it costs to rebore the rifle barrel from Hoyt or someone else? I still don't see that cost plus defarbing would cost more than $1000. I agree with others in that Pedersoli didn't study their markets carefully. I wonder how soon it will be before they drop their price. Does Armi Sport have stock I can buy?

[JimKindred]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

I just don't see it. I'm not going to name any real names here but hypothetically my company wouldn't buy out "Bob's mainstream sutlery" to eliminate competition. We don't draw on the same pool of customers. Sure, a mainstream re-enactor might buy a cap or a housewife from me at some point, but the guy who wants a $60 Pakistani sack coat isn't going to buy my $200 sack coat, even if I eliminated 50% of the vendors where they could have got one (as Pedersoli did with EA, leaving only Armi Sport as a source for mid-range muskets.)

Lamborghini competes with Ferrari, not with Chevrolet. Different products, price points, and pools of customers.

Could it be that they really just did not have any clue whatsoever who their market is? I imagine any company who thinks they can get away with a 100% price increase in a year's time for a product really has no clue who it is they're trying to sell to. Granted, the price increase for a higher quality of materials, better fit and finish, and a plethora of improvements can certainly be understood, but when a large portion of their customer base cannot tell the difference and truthfully, do not need the improvements (such as a match grade barrel) that again, just does not make any sense. Cosmetic changes necessary to make an arm authentic (basically improve the Euroarms product and take their market share) should not have cost considerably more than the original EA retail price, but the lion's share of this dramatic price increase is coming from features that are entirely superfluous to re-enactors. Why buy out a company to take their market share, then essentially throw that market share away by replacing that company's product line with ludicrously priced products?

All I know is that the community at large will not pay $1,300 for a new musket. A decade of doing USSS re-enacting where our Sharps rifles cost anywhere from $900-$1,200 taught me that. I also know that if I were an executive at Armi Chiappa right now, I would think that Christmas had come early.

Dan,

You can basically count the number of companies that produce quality muskets on one hand. Eliminating one has the potential to increase your market share because there is an extemely limited number of choices the customer base has to go to. If one company continues to buy the others eventually you will only have a single source and they will then be able to set the price any where they want it.

As was said earlier and as it has been so since the hobby started the musket manufacturers are not approaching reenactors to see what they want they are going to the shooters. What is wanted here is not reaching the levels at the manufacturers that could make a difference.

Also, the prices quoted in the original post may be the MSRP and few if any firearms actually sell for that. I expect the sale price to be a bit lower.

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Jim,

That is why I compared it to eliminating a full 50% of the mainstream sutler market. Even with just half the competition still remaining (whether it's one manufacturer of muskets or, say, 25 sellers of Pakistani sack coats) the customer will not abide a 100% price increase simply because their selection is more limited. They will go with the Armi Sport at the price they are used to or the cheaper Indian at an even lower price.

The bottom line (as I see it at least) is that Pedersoli just gift wrapped Euroarms market share of the re-enacting firearms market and gave it to Armi Sport.

Or maybe I just have cheap friends...I don't know anyone that would be willing to spend 100% more on a marginally improved item for their hobby when there are alternatives readily available.

[JimKindred]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Well, AmiSport may be their next acquistion.

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

That thought had occurred to me...

Imagine the pages of speculation we'd come up with THEN!

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Hallo!

Thanks, Herr Phil for the correction. I appreciate it.
I had been told that prototypes of the new line had gone to the N-SSA's SAC in August 2011. And that was in error.

I do not think too many lads know it, but "we" all owe a large debt to the N-SSA's Small Arms Committee (SAC) as they were and are the driving force behind the CW reproduction market since just about forever.

Yes, IMHO it has not always been a perfect system or a perfect relationship, as in my bias and in my daze there was a set of standards for commercial makers like Val Forgett/Navy Arms and a much more stringent set of standards for non-commercial individuals like myself. (Or, not having access to the SAC standards/measurement book to build from the criteria we were being held accountable to.)

The N-SSA's Small Arms Committee is a unique and impressive body. The N-SSA reflects a recognized, respected, decades long standing, organized, formal association with a SAC and rules and standards in place that others often use and refer to in their ads as "N-SSA Approved." On the other side of the scale we have a larger body in numbers of unorganized individuals with a few "brigaded" units acting as independent associations and coalitions who do not and cannot agree on the color of shite when it comes to reproduction firearms or reproduction firearm standards (or lack of standards).
And as such, "we" represent a disorganized collection of hobbyists without voice let alone any unified voice or set of standards reenacting-wide. "We" are torn between "good enough" so-called "de-farbed" reworks/tinkerings and-out-of-the-box whatever the Italians choose to sell us even if it is off, wrong, or a version of an Enfield not used in the U.S. in the Civil War. But, as disorganized individuals without organized body or unified voice, we year after year continue to buy whatever the Italians chose to make for us.
We have taught the Italians how to treat us. "We" as reenactors and even living historians have little or no credibiity when it comes to firearms. And "our" record is pretty much "use what comes out of the box." And we have bought tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of "out of the box" Italian offerings.

I am not saying this is the case, but if I were an Italian repro gunmaker, I would have to go with one of two historical records:

1. The N-SSA's SAC, and their history and record (not perfect but impressive)

2. "Reenactors," and their/our history of using farb-level firearms having no body, no voice, and no unified standard of any kind other than out-of-the-box

That the Italians look to the N-SSA, IMHO, is just "natural' and to be "expected."

IMHO still, what will be hard to predict is what effect this will have on the reenacting community other than the initial one of "driving" lads into the competion. Meaning Armi Sport at its best, and Indian non-gun model/collector guns at its worst. Or for the more "authentic campaigner" community, lads may find themselves having the unofficial "standard" of Armi Sport "de-farbs" or say one de-farbed Pedersoli instead of a golf-bag of M1861Springfield , M1841 Rifle, and M1842 Springfield, and revovler or two on the side, etc., etc., (meing one gun instead of multiples..)

And the used EuroArms market as well as AS market shold climb in value/price.

Dunno. We shall see.

Will a reenactor or living historian pay the Pedersoli price bump for a few changes but for a gun still needing de-farb work, or balk at paying for a match grade rifled competitve target shooting sport barrel they do not need?

Or will the reenacting/living history community finally stop looking the other way and stop ignoring the restored originals, hybrids, and the custom-builts.. and launch the beginning of a new era of custom guns or restored originals as the "authentic' choice?

Naw.... ;) :)

Dunno. We shall see what the future holds.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt
Heretic Mess

[cwpilgrim]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Maybe if more of our end of the hobby spent time shooting more authentic rounds, with rifles that are defarbed, custom (historically accurate), or hybrid rifles, another branch of shooters will emerge that can have a voice that will be listened to.
IMHO, if the firearm aspect of this hobby could attain the priority of what historical clothing has, we might be taken into consideration more.

[Philo]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Curt,

Thanks for the succinct and very accurate description concerning the part the N-SSA plays in the repro arm process. I can tell you that the arms manufacturer's realize that with approximately 3,000 members the N-SSA does not represent much of market share for their products. And rest assured that our Small Arms Committee chairman, John Holland has been working very hard to convince the Italian arms manufacturers to do a better job with the fit and feel of their product, along with making the needed corrections to make their reproduction firearms more authentic. Our goal is to encourage a product that is faithful to the original, and at a affordable price for reenactors, living historians and skirmishers alike.

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy and prosperous New Year.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Hallo!

Being the Sinks, and for those who might be interested.... here are two clips of Pierangelo Pedersoli of Davide Pedersoli talking about the new Enfields in part one and barrel making in part two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt3nX2ev0og

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOo-muzMRp0&feature=related

IMHO, I think he illustrates well the "entanglement" and the business thinking between "shooters" and reenactors."
And while it may just be personality and schmoozing (not an Italian word), the first prototype goes to.... Hungary?

:) :)

Curt

[rpierson]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Restored originals/"customs" are the wave of the now. Italians have been blowing it for years. We shouldn't care if they ask $2000 for one of their boat anchors - I wouldn't expect authentics to cry (or even notice) if Fall Creek raised the price of their forage caps 75%. Is there a difference?

-Randall Pierson

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Restored originals/"customs" are the wave of the now. Italians have been blowing it for years. We shouldn't care if they ask $2000 for one of their boat anchors - I wouldn't expect authentics to cry (or even notice) if Fall Creek raised the price of their forage caps 75%. Is there a difference?

-Randall Pierson

Still, this is just costs going-up for the beginner in the hobby. Easy to say the above when you have a good kit already established like 99% of us on here do already, but what about those that are new to the hobby and balk at paying a TON of cash for a musket? A price like $650 back 14 years ago when I got started and was poor made me choke. I surmise the same will happen with gents thinking about starting up in this end of the hobby even more so seeing $1200 or more. It's an example of how costs are going out the roof to do this stuff.

[rpierson]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Still, this is just costs going-up for the beginner in the hobby. Easy to say the above when you have a good kit already established like 99% of us on here do already, but what about those that are new to the hobby and balk at paying a TON of cash for a musket? A price like $650 back 14 years ago when I got started and was poor made me choke. I surmise the same will happen with gents thinking about starting up in this end of the hobby even more so seeing $1200 or more. It's an example of how costs are going out the roof to do this stuff.

Point taken and absolutely correct - costs are going up. Luckily for the newbies of the world (in ANY hobby) Al Gore invented the internet. I'll bet if a fish searched really hard, he could find a beat up repro RM for ~ $300. That said, newbies buying poorly/incorrectly made kit at any price is part of a larger problem and something most folks here would advise against. Your point about the broke-ness of newbies has two sides. There is some merit to buying in as cheaply as possible, but if money really is tight, waste is even harder to recover from. In essence there is no difference between a farby kepi or an inauthentic gun.

I really don't think any of this price hike adds up to bad news for authentics/ would-be authentics. Doubling the price on the same ol' garbage makes it ...the same ol' garbage at twice the price.

-Randall Pierson

[David Fox]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Little Mary Sunshine that I am (an inherited trait), a walnut stocked Pedersoli Enfield would perhaps make a nice basis for an Orson Blunt defarb. And, to generally answer a question by comrade Krausz, last time I had the job done, Robert Hoyt charges about $250 to press in one of his superb barrel liners. He's made a near tack driver out of an M.1863 Springfield with a badly rusted barrel, and nicely restamped it for me most recently. I have a well worked over .56-56 M.1860 Spencer in his shop now.

[RNMCSA]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Speaking as a fish I can attest to how daunting the price of getting into this hobby can be. I have spent the better part of this past year researching using both the enternet, and those funny things; what are they called.....oh yes books. Not to mention the hours I have spent on this and other forums gaining as much information as I can to create my impression. At years end I have a RDII jacket from an approved vendor and part of an accouterment set. I wish now I had the $150 back I spent on some farb gear I got off of craigs list, but you live and you learn. (I hadent yet found this forum when I bought it, and did not know the differance in the different aspects of the hobby) So making my long tail of woe short, I had planned on buying a Todd Watts defarb with taxes. Now though I wonder if I should wait on the Pederoseli P-53 to come out and if I do am i then looking at spending more to still have it defarbed. Money i can tell you for a fact is an issue. Will I not be just as well off with a defarbed Armi sport from Todd?

Roy