New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

[Prodical Reb]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Speaking as a fish I can attest to how daunting the price of getting into this hobby can be.....................So making my long tail of woe short, I had planned on buying a Todd Watts defarb with taxes. Now though I wonder if I should wait on the Pederoseli P-53 to come out and if I do am i then looking at spending more to still have it defarbed. Money i can tell you for a fact is an issue. Will I not be just as well off with a defarbed Armi sport from Todd?

Roy

Roy, go buy the TW defarb. It will probably be better than the Pedersoli product! And if the prices discussed earlier is true you'll be money ahead! Plus you'll have a historically accurate piece. I will hazard a guess the Ped P53 will still need defarbing!

[cwpilgrim]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Roy,
There are a few options for consideration:

Buy a new rifle and progressively defarb it. The most basic is removing the modern barrel markings. To many, this is as far as they go. Next will be maybe getting a new lockplate, and so on. But, the infamous problem with every Italian gun is that even when they look nice, they are still overweight. There was a nice P53 defarbed that was in the for sale section a few days ago. Not sure if it sold, but I think the price was around $700.00. Excellent work was done to this rifle, but it was heavy.

Consider even buying a used P53 and progressively defarb it as finances allow. Again, just remove the modern markings at first. They are pretty reasonable used.

But, even with the greatest defarb job done, if it is still too heavy, it is still not right. You can sink a whole lot of money into something that you will look at and get depressed because what you started with was not even capable of being correct to begin with, even after you had spent over $1100.00 on better repro parts, and even original parts and had correct markings.

For slightly more, you can get into the custom guns that will be better all around than anything coming out of Italy. So, don't break your piggy bank on a rifle that will never be right, regardless of the markings.

You may not think that the weight issue is very significant, but after toting it all day over hill and dale, you will feel every pound.
From personal experience, I got rid of my P53 for that very reason. I got a new Euroarms, and put a bunch of time and money into it. Every event I cussed the fact that in fact I had wasted my money. I still don't have a P53, but settled for a top of the line '61 Springfield that is correct and will work for most every event that a P53 is allowed. So, that is something to consider as well.

Not an easy decision, or a cheap one, but the better the rifle from the start will make you happier down the line.

[Marine Mike]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Roy,
A defarb from a manufacturer will still be to some extent a one size fits all. Todd, Blair or others who've gained a respectable reputation for getting it right can add those other details to get it closer to the impression you are developing as well as advise you of how best to acheive it.

[unclefrank]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Just the thought of a new wave of Indian muskets entering the ranks is scary indeed. As I recall, the weight of the Italian P53 was not all that bad. It was the 61 that was the worst offender. Too bad DGW just can't bring back the Jap 61 kit. :(

[RNMCSA]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Thanks for all the advice guys. Its allways a struggle to decide where to put my few extra dollers the Boss allows me. All my Christmas dollers went to Duvall.:D

[maillemaker]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

I like to think I've had some small part in Pedersoli's decision to re-visit the design of the Euroarms P53. When I discovered that they were re-working the line I emailed them several times telling them that this would be an excellent opportunity to address some of the issues of the rifle. I told them I was no expert at these things but pointed them to Geoff Walden's article on the 53 and told them that it was my understanding that all the modern reproductions are based off of the Parker Hale repro which was based off of a 4th model 53, which did not see Civil War service and that they should consider re-tooling to match a 3rd model. I told them about how the repros had an incorrect hammer and other details as mentioned in Geoff's article.

There has been much discussion with the editor of the Pedersoli Black Powder magazine over on the N-SSA forum:

http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/showthread.php?3618-Pedersoli-Civil-War-Muzzleloaders&highlight=pedersoli

It appears that Pedersoli has done some of the following:

"authentic" proof marks on the barrel
recontoured stock
Stock of American Walnut. Not the correct wood, but should give a more accurate weight.
Correct taper to the barrel, resulting in a more accurate barrel weight.
Correct hammer
"authentic" lockplate markings

I say "authentic" because I cannot say how authentic these new markings are or if they are consistent (i.e. proof marks are correct for the lockplate depicted).

The weapon will have button rifling, which is incorrect. It will also have law-required markings on the barrel.

The weapon is about a $1200 weapon, but I do not see this as a show-stopper. Pedersoli's new Civil War line of weapons are being manufactured to be accurate enough for competition shooting - they are thus supposed to be quality, accurate, real-shooting firearms for people who want a firearm that really shoots.

Today, if you want this kind of quality you may well end up having to buy a competition barrel (I paid $500 for mine without bluing) or having your barrel sleeved for a little less. So if you buy a $600 Armisport or used musket and re-barrel or sleeve it you are already easily into $1000 range. Defarbing is going to run you another $300 or so.

So it seems to me that if you try and build a defarbed, accurate shooting Enfield today you will spend about $1300 to do it.

Yes, it is possible that you might find a used musket or a new Armi-sport that is an accurate shooter as-bought. I did not have such luck with the Euroarms I bought on Gunbroker. Mine ended up having a bore that was .584 in diameter and I probably spent $250 in bullet molds trying to find a round that would shoot accurately in it before I gave up and bought a new barrel for it. I tried buying an original (before I had any clue what I was doing) and ended up with one that had been converted to smoothbore. I spent $800 on that one.

As I said, I'm no expert, but it seems to me from following these things online for a year that if you want to buy a shootable original Enfield in good shape it looks like you will be spending about $2000. More if you want something that doesn't look 150 years old.

With the $800 smoothbore 53 I got, I considered what it would take to turn it into a good looking, shootable Enfield, and basically I was going to put a new stock on it from Dunlop and have the barrel sleeved, which entails cutting the barrel in half under one of the barrel bands and then it is welded back together. By the time the firearm was restored to like-new condition and made into an accurate shooter I figure you would easily have a couple of thousand dollars into it once again, plus you have basically turned an original into a reproduction, while using and preserving some original parts.

I don't know enough about the Enfield to comment on how accurate Pedersoli's new attempt is. But assuming they have corrected the things that they say they have corrected, and assuming it is as accurate as the video shows the new Springfield to be, I think a lot of people looking for a real-shooting Enfield will be quite happy to spend $1200 on one, as opposed to buying an Armi-sport and then a new barrel and then paying to have it fitted to the stock. It wont' go far enough in authenticity to satisfy campaigners and it can't because of the law-required stampings on the barrel. But hopefully this will at least be a modernly-manufactured reproduction of a 3rd model P53 Enfield. It should at least give you a better starting point than any other manufactured Enfield to date.

I can't want until current photos are made available that you experts can look at. One thing I urge is that if you have recommendations for improvements please provide them on the link above or email Pedersoli directly. They seem to be very open to modifying the Enfield at this time as they re-tool it. It's a great opportunity and maybe once-in-a-lifetime.

Steve

[JimKindred]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Do not confuse what is accepted by the NSSA and what is accepted on this forum as one and the same.

I like to think I've had some small part in Pedersoli's decision to re-visit the design of the Euroarms P53. When I discovered that they were re-working the line I emailed them several times telling them that this would be an excellent opportunity to address some of the issues of the rifle. I told them I was no expert at these things but pointed them to Geoff Walden's article on the 53 and told them that it was my understanding that all the modern reproductions are based off of the Parker Hale repro which was based off of a 4th model 53, which did not see Civil War service and that they should consider re-tooling to match a 3rd model. I told them about how the repros had an incorrect hammer and other details as mentioned in Geoff's article.

There has been much discussion with the editor of the Pedersoli Black Powder magazine over on the N-SSA forum:

http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/showthread.php?3618-Pedersoli-Civil-War-Muzzleloaders&highlight=pedersoli

It appears that Pedersoli has done some of the following:

"authentic" proof marks on the barrel
recontoured stock
Stock of American Walnut. Not the correct wood, but should give a more accurate weight.
Correct taper to the barrel, resulting in a more accurate barrel weight.
Correct hammer
"authentic" lockplate markings

I say "authentic" because I cannot say how authentic these new markings are or if they are consistent (i.e. proof marks are correct for the lockplate depicted).

The weapon will have button rifling, which is incorrect. It will also have law-required markings on the barrel.

The weapon is about a $1200 weapon, but I do not see this as a show-stopper. Pedersoli's new Civil War line of weapons are being manufactured to be accurate enough for competition shooting - they are thus supposed to be quality, accurate, real-shooting firearms for people who want a firearm that really shoots.

Today, if you want this kind of quality you may well end up having to buy a competition barrel (I paid $500 for mine without bluing) or having your barrel sleeved for a little less. So if you buy a $600 Armisport or used musket and re-barrel or sleeve it you are already easily into $1000 range. Defarbing is going to run you another $300 or so.

So it seems to me that if you try and build a defarbed, accurate shooting Enfield today you will spend about $1300 to do it.

Yes, it is possible that you might find a used musket or a new Armi-sport that is an accurate shooter as-bought. I did not have such luck with the Euroarms I bought on Gunbroker. Mine ended up having a bore that was .584 in diameter and I probably spent $250 in bullet molds trying to find a round that would shoot accurately in it before I gave up and bought a new barrel for it. I tried buying an original (before I had any clue what I was doing) and ended up with one that had been converted to smoothbore. I spent $800 on that one.

As I said, I'm no expert, but it seems to me from following these things online for a year that if you want to buy a shootable original Enfield in good shape it looks like you will be spending about $2000. More if you want something that doesn't look 150 years old.

With the $800 smoothbore 53 I got, I considered what it would take to turn it into a good looking, shootable Enfield, and basically I was going to put a new stock on it from Dunlop and have the barrel sleeved, which entails cutting the barrel in half under one of the barrel bands and then it is welded back together. By the time the firearm was restored to like-new condition and made into an accurate shooter I figure you would easily have a couple of thousand dollars into it once again, plus you have basically turned an original into a reproduction, while using and preserving some original parts.

I don't know enough about the Enfield to comment on how accurate Pedersoli's new attempt is. But assuming they have corrected the things that they say they have corrected, and assuming it is as accurate as the video shows the new Springfield to be, I think a lot of people looking for a real-shooting Enfield will be quite happy to spend $1200 on one, as opposed to buying an Armi-sport and then a new barrel and then paying to have it fitted to the stock. It wont' go far enough in authenticity to satisfy campaigners and it can't because of the law-required stampings on the barrel. But hopefully this will at least be a modernly-manufactured reproduction of a 3rd model P53 Enfield. It should at least give you a better starting point than any other manufactured Enfield to date.

I can't want until current photos are made available that you experts can look at. One thing I urge is that if you have recommendations for improvements please provide them on the link above or email Pedersoli directly. They seem to be very open to modifying the Enfield at this time as they re-tool it. It's a great opportunity and maybe once-in-a-lifetime.

Steve

[maillemaker]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

There is no confusion at all. I only linked to the discussion there because that is where the bulk of the discussion concerning this new offering has happened, with direct feedback from Balázs who interfaces directly with Pedersoli and who is editor in chief of their Blackpowder No. 1 magazine. If people want to see the kind of input that has been given to Pedersoli, and Pedersoli's response, that thread is where it's at.

The bottom line is that if the corrections Pedersoli claims to have made actually are correct, this will be the most historically correct Civil War-era 1853 Enfield commercially available today. On top of that, it looks like it will be a highly accurate firearm, if the test shooting of their new Springfield is any example of what we can expect.

It's going to cost more than the old Euroarms or an ArmiSport, but it's not going to cost much more than converting either of those into a competition-grade shooter. If you want it to be campaigner-worthy, it's going to still need a defarb, though hopefully it won't be as much work to defarb as current modern offerings.

If you don't care if the firearm can actually or accurately shoot, you'll probably be better off buying any used 1853 and sending it to Blockade Runner or the like for complete defarbing.

Steve

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Still, this is just costs going-up for the beginner in the hobby. Easy to say the above when you have a good kit already established like 99% of us on here do already, but what about those that are new to the hobby and balk at paying a TON of cash for a musket?

When I was young, the $250 I paid for my first Enfield was a ton of cash.

There are other "historical play dress-up" hobbies out there where folks pay >$100 for a coat. Its all relative.

So, while my heart goes out to the newbies in the hobby, I also know that those who have a passion for the time period and want to do it right will find a way to get it done. The biggest barriers to event attendance and recruiting are children, spouses, full-time jobs, limited vacation time, and/or the pursuit of a college degree.

[john duffer]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

'I also know that those who have a passion for the time period and want to do it right will find a way to get it done."

Startup can be a bit expensive but in this case it's actually an investment rather than money down than the toilet. Folks will almost certainly be able to get their money back or even profit if they get out later.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Startup can be a bit expensive but in this case it's actually an investment rather than money down than the toilet. Folks will almost certainly be able to get their money back or even profit if they get out later.

You and I know that, but try convincing a person that is interested in 'doing it right' but sees a $100 sub-standard frock coat X versus a high-grade $400 frock coat. Add to it that not everyone knows they can get the money back out of it when they are done on forums like this one if they don't know the sub-culture community being new to the hobby. To an average joe... 99% of the time, the economics just don't play-out no matter how willing the spirit is. It is the same issue on these expensive rifles slowly raising the overall cost of doing the hobby.

I couldn't convince my ex-wife (a non-reenactor) that quality gear was actually worth it no matter how much I showed her pics of originals or actual original gear in comparison. My fiancee is an authentic reenactor, so no more problems for me there.

But that's just me... ;)

[maillemaker]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

The biggest barriers to event attendance and recruiting are children, spouses, full-time jobs, limited vacation time, and/or the pursuit of a college degree.

Amen bro.

To an average joe... 99% of the time, the economics just don't play-out no matter how willing the spirit is.

Meh. You can put together a simple infantry impression, including firearm, for about the same price as a high-end gaming PC. I think just about any serious hobby today is going to set you back a few thousand dollars whether it is boating, golfing, camping, hunting, fishing, photography, paintball - you name it. Yes, it's possible to dabble in these things for much less and some people do, but I think when it becomes your passion most people are in for a penny, in for a pound.

Steve

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

Meh. You can put together a simple infantry impression, including firearm, for about the same price as a high-end gaming PC. I think just about any serious hobby today is going to set you back a few thousand dollars whether it is boating, golfing, camping, hunting, fishing, photography, paintball - you name it. Yes, it's possible to dabble in these things for much less and some people do, but I think when it becomes your passion most people are in for a penny, in for a pound.

Steve

That view is too simplistic for my taste, but others' mileage may vary... hobbies are the first thing to go in a bad economy. Even the PC gaming hobby, et al you mention above (which have more followers than reenacting in-general).

Say you have someone interested in doing "Civil War reenacting" and joins a mainstream group like most of us here did. They see high-priced gear and say 'gee, why buy that when a cheaper frock is available at skinner sutler X and I can still do this hobby'. Economic times are rough, people don't have as much disposable income as in years past, so why not? That is why most people that are interested in the hobby still stick with the cheaper alternative. Mind you, they are also doing this hobby and dealing with what issues you talk about above. To be authentic, you have to want to be 'in for a penny or pound' and know why you are doing it over settling for a lesser impression. That is why economics of doing the authentic-side of the hobby control how many people do this end of the hobby.

[Mike_Schramm]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

I happen to agree with Mr. Lloyd on this.

Carrying the PC gaming a step further, if a new game comes out, you might need (at most) to buy a few components to play. Or you can limp along with your 4GB of RAM if you turn off most of the other processes and slow down the graphic resolution. It isn't the greatest, but you are playing.

Making the move from mainstream to AC is not like that.

Show up to an '61 EFUBU with an accurate coat, pants, hat and brogans. Then pull out your zouave...

[john duffer]

Re: New Pedersoli Civil War arms line

No doubt you gentlemen make valid points but not sure what said points are. If folks can't afford to participate they probably won't. What can anyone can do about it beyond loaner gear and the normal laws of supply and demand?