Weapon experts, what is this?

[NY Pvt]

One of my friends was offered the chance to buy this from a co-worker. He is more of a WWI and WWII collector and declined as he had no idea what to make of it and passed along the photos to me to see if I wanted to buy it as I also know his co-worker. I do not know what to make of it. My first thought when I saw the thumbnails was that it looked a lot like a maynard carbine with some post war additions. But as I look at it more and more at it, it looks like it is all pieces put together, a true Frankenstein gun. What are your thoughts, what might be the value to this and if it is a pieced together might some of the pieces have a value (86 is a low serial number), etc...Thoughts

Thanks

[CompanyWag]

Re: Weapon experts, what is this?

Though I'm no weapons expert, I think you are right and it may be indeed a Frankengun. An odd mixture of parts from several unrelated firearms, and many parts missing. The ID on the stock looks dubious as well.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Weapon experts, what is this?

Hallo!

ALMOST Stumped the Chump on this one. I had to consult ye books of Lore, as it was annoyingly familiar but elusively out of mind.

It falls in that rarest of categories... where the Confederates changed breech-loaders into muzzle-loaders. They were made up from "surplus" Hall rifles and carbines that VA had received as part of the 1808 Militia Act (IIRC, a batch of 1000 rifles and 1000 carbines in 1836) redone by N.T. Read and John Watson of Danville VA first in 1862 and then again in 1863 for Boyd's Command of the Virginia State Line.

Albaugh and Edwards mistakingly initially cited them as made by J.B. Barrett out of Harpers Ferry parts their confusing documents for Barrett getting Halls bayonets due to how they read the ditto marks. So some older references will have the A & E error with Barrett.

Read and Watson were paid for $14 for the first 242, and then about $17.50 thereafter for a guestimated total of around 900.

What they did is basically cut off the Halls breech and replace it with a new brass breech that had a cone (nipple) centrally mounted in its hollow breech plug. Basically, as far as possible, they used most everything else "Hall," except for the buttstock which was new like the breech and hammer. There were two "Types" which vary a bit by the size of the breech and barrel length, the Type I have a smaller breech and longer barrel.

A handful of both types have survived. An intact Type I, serial number "80" has survived and is in the Dr. John Murphy Collection. There is also so a Post War conversion of one to a shotgun ( a somewhat common fate for Confederate as well as Federal arms).

Anyways, that is a Read and Watson "Type I" Rifle. (aka in CS records as 'Read Rifles.")

However, I suspect it might be a post War shotgun if smoothbore. The front end has been docked and altered as they NUG "should" have a Hall type nose band and front end.

Even in that condition, R & W's are so rare, I could not even venture a WAG on value.

A rare find!

Thanks for the challenge!

Curt

[CompanyWag]

Re: Weapon experts, what is this?

Thanks Curt! I see the Hall parts now that you mention it. An ugly duckling turns out to be a swan perhaps. Could the ID in the stock be less dubious then?

So what is missing in the center to hold it all together? Some sort of frame or missing stock piece?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Weapon experts, what is this?

Hallo!

'ID's" IMHO are always "complicated." With gun in hand, sometimes ne can look at the age of the wood in the cuts, or whether scratches, scrapes, dings, etc, extend through the cuts. But a "commemorative" done by a family member remembering "Pap" in 1890 can look as old as one in 1863.
Not so much 1963.

IMHO still, and I realize there are some 'out there" that are legit, but... I "like" to see just names, or names and units as ID. I am not saying it isn't so here, but I can be "more suspicious" about a unit marking as it can defeat the purpose of ID'ing something by the soldier.

And it is just bias on my part... IIRC, the 4th VA Cavalry was a pretty hot-shot unit under Stuart, F. Lee, Wickham, and Munford,, with some members of the "gentry"' mixed in. My bias is, I have a harder time seeing the Little Fork Rangers armed with a "second rate" stop-gap rifle. But, it could have been. Dunno.

Missing stock piece, yes.

The new, replacement butt section was "mortised and tenonned" like and butt-joined to the Hall forestock. This one was done on a post 1832 made Halls Rifle as that is when they changed the barrel band springs to pins:



Being a thin area, that part of the stock is fragile.

Curt

[M.Latham]

Re: Weapon experts, what is this?

Dane,

It is as stated, a Read and Watson carbine (not rifle). With repairs and restoration, value is in the $7000 - 10000 range I'd guess.

If you've got the cash, I'd think it'd be worth it.

[NY Pvt]

Re: Weapon experts, what is this?

WoW, Curt many thanks for the info. This turned out to be more interesting and informative than I thought it would be. In essence it is a Frankenstein gun, just one that was produced in 1862 along with several hundred others like it.

To be honest I don't feel confident in being able to purchase it (still waiting for an email back). If I am able, I will let you all know and post better pictures. At the very least I learned a bit more about Confederate ordnance.

Crossing my fingers

[gsusat]

Re: Weapon experts, what is this?

I just looked at this.

Wow

Curt nailed it. There are two types of these weapons. The one Curt pictured is considered the type 2 and the one you have pictured is considered the type 1. They enlarged the brass breech on the type 2s. Julia's auction next month has a rifle in the auction. Here is the link to the pictures.

http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/catalog_detail_shots.asp?Details=45794&sale=320&lot=2392

While the estimate is for a complete one, this one missing the wood bring less - still There are some guys that could do a nice job on the restoration and it still quite a valuable piece. While the one in the auction is a rifle - this one looks like it was made from a 1833 carbine - with a sliding ramrod bayonet. That is the fitting under the barrel. So I do not think the barrel has been cut and possible the stock was originaly made that length.

What a cool find.

Do let us know what happens.

[gsusat]

Re: Weapon experts, what is this?

I have a link to a Hall 1833 carbine.

http://www.19thcenturyweapons.com/1007/hall33c.html

Check out the front end. This one is complete with the sliding bayonet. It is hard for me to call it a ramrod. They are triangular and have a notch that catches in the stop near the muzzle when the bayonet is slid forward. My understanding on the spliced stock on these is because they often they used the front of the Hall stock and only had to replace the back half of the stock. The splice was under the lower band.

Again cool find....