US Canteens - Guaging Demand

[Honved]

Re: US Canteens - Guaging Demand

Gents,

I voted yes - I'm looking to come out of "retirement" beginning in the 1863/2013 time frame and will be re-acquiring uniforms and equipment over the next 3-12 months (and shedding a few pounds). I only want to buy one Federal canteen and I'd prefer it to be as correct as possible. Price is always an issue but if I only have to buy one of them I could see paying $75 to $125.

Best regards,

Todd Guthrie

ex- 20th Tennessee Regt. CSA
ex- Picketts Mill Living History Group

[Chris G.]

Re: US Canteens - Guaging Demand

Absolutely, as I am in the market for one at the moment as it is. Taking into account what I would condiser fair prices for accurate clothes and leather...$100.00 - $150.00 wouldn't seem out of line for a canteen.

Regards,
Chris Graves

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: US Canteens - Guaging Demand

Folks,

Perhaps I am missing something but we have been selling authentic US canteens for over two years, and based on the research and work put into them, and how quickly they sell out and the demand we experience for them I am perplexed by the assumption on this forum that "no one" is making an authentic US canteen right now. Both of our US canteens have the tinware done by Axel Ulrich, with the stoppers, covers, and straps done by us here in house. For his Cincinnati canteen Axel copied an original in Tim Sheads' collection with a folded lip, and for his Philadelphia canteen he copied one in his own collection. For our reproduction Philadelphia canteens our customers have a choice of a later 1861 production canteen with either a folded drill strap (200,000 were made and issued) or a leather strap for a few dollars more. Our Cincinnati canteen is a copy of a late summer/early fall 1862 canteen that would have been produced and issued through the depot.

Why are people stating that there are no authentic canteen reproductions out there? Is it because we do our best to keep our price low that it is automatically assumed that something must be wrong with ours? I would gladly charge $100 each for the canteens and pocket the profit if it made you all feel like you were getting a better deal!

Finally, while Mike O’Donnell’s book is a good start on the subject, it is not by any means comprehensive and doesn't list the only correct styles of canteens, just a few examples of them and their background information. His book is an excellent survey of a handful of Civil War era canteens, and can give you a nice glimpse of the pieces he chose to examine. In several discussions with Axel he has time and again told me how his life and work has been made miserable by people who read the book and then immediately put on the title of "expert". But spend even just an hour in a place like the Wisconsin Veterans Museum basement archives, and study the over FOUR DOZEN canteens they have in their collection (not even on display, just in storage) and you will realize that trying to quantify a subject as diverse as this based on a small book is completely futile. Within just this one museum the variation in size, spouts, strap holders, tin thickness, cover fabric, and straps is astronomical. Literally no two were exactly alike. Handle originals, study a wide variety, and catalog your findings once you've examined perhaps two hundred examples of the millions of canteens produced during the war, and then perhaps begin to draw conclusions based on your sampling. Don't read a three hundred page book, (a hundred pages of which deals with this particular subject,) and put on your "expert" badge.

Okay, rant over. Back to the Shiloh sack coats!

[Citman05]

Re: US Canteens - Guaging Demand

Folks, Perhaps I am missing something but we have been selling authentic US canteens for over two years,
Okay, rant over.

I know you do Dan! I was also confused, when I think of things not being made in the hobby or things that need to be made better, Fed Issue Canteens have not come to mind. Axel has always made great products and I have always thought it would be very easy to get my hands on a new or used Fed canteen.

When Jan B came out with Gum Blankets now that was a sweet spot, those were getting hard to find and only NJS was making them.

[J.H.Berger]

Re: US Canteens - Guaging Demand

Dan,
Just to make one point clear: when I started the other thread it was definitely about the question of demand and most important also the question of authenticity and details/varieties I had in mind. It was not to miscredit anybody's product!
In fact I was not really aware that you are also selling canteens. And actually I do not know the fed issue canteens you offer made by Axel Ulrich. ( I had written " as far as I know nobody is...."). I am happy that there is still somebody keeping this up!! Is he also making them in hot dipped tin?
It would be nice to see one uncovered to see its construction details. And yes you are right, there are many many variants but there are some things which may be considered as a rule. For example that the spouts were usually soldered to the collars from the inside not outside like most repros I have seen so far.


So far I have had the impression that due to the lack of discussions about repro canteen details ( different spouts, corrugated canteens etc.), the lack of varieties I have seen offered and especially lack of hot dipped tin canteens (and the info I have received from a tinsmith who used to make hot dipped tin canteens but is not any more due to lack of demand as he has told me) the demand was not really there.
I was also thinking about the lack of a real good bullseye canteens. Again I am talking about what I know, if there are any fine products out there, excellent. I just have recognized that the bullseye canteen in general seem to have disappeared somehow from the scene. Why? Lack of supply or lack of demand?
This has made me believe there is no real demand but anyway I was curious about asking.

[lukegilly13]

Re: US Canteens - Guaging Demand

I should clarify what I said before. All the Cinci canteens I could find images of had the rolled tin spout. I found that Ulrich made one of a shape and size that suited me. Also he does make a a canteen with the correct sling retainers/loops/keepers whatever you call them. Dan carries this canteen and it is pictured on his website. There are a few other vendors as well that carry Ulrich canteens and I'm sure they probably have them as well. My problem was with the spouts. The pictures I had seen of originals had a rolled tin spout (not folded). Not saying that the folded ones are inaccurate (Ulrich posted in another similar thread the source for his reproduction). I just wanted the rolled tin spout. After talking to a couple of tinners and canteen makers (not necessarily vendors) I was told that it is not possible to roll the modern tin as it was the original tin on something as small as a canteen spout. Long story short.....I had an ulrich canteen that did not meet the expectations of what I wanted....i sent it back to the vendor and told them what I wanted out of a canteen. In a few short days I recieved a new canteen with everything to the exact specs I asked about including a rolled tin spout (original). Ulrich gets my vote! Will not let go of the canteen I have...if it ever leaks, it will become a skillet.
I also had some awesome pictures of reproductions sent to me made from another vendor who no longer produces the Cd canteen.

Dan posted earlier that the canteens he carry are copied from an original and I have no doubt that they are VERY accurate or he wouldn't carry them. So maybe the problem is the wide variety of canteens that exist from the same depot. Some folks expectations are not of the same canteen that is being reproduced by vendors (as was the case with me). For me to get what I wanted, I simply had to tell the vendor/maker what I was looking for and why and they did it. Had I just contacted whoever in the first place and said, "I want a CD canteen with a rolled tin spout soldered from the inside with this particular size sling keeper" then I probably would have recieved it made correctly in the first place.

[poilu1917]

Re: US Canteens - Guaging Demand

This may sound like a dumb question at this point, but I am assuming their is no vendor currently making a "hot dipped" federal canteen repro correct? I currently have an Ulrich repro but would love to get a "hot dipped" one for use without a cover.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: US Canteens - Guaging Demand

Jon,

Have a look a few posts back. Dan Wambaugh posted about Axel Ulrich canteens that he carries. I have not seen his canteens first-hand, so I cannot comment.

[Jimmayo]

Re: US Canteens - Guaging Demand

Folks,


Finally, while Mike O’Donnell’s book is a good start on the subject, it is not by any means comprehensive and doesn't list the only correct styles of canteens, just a few examples of them and their background information. His book is an excellent survey of a handful of Civil War era canteens, and can give you a nice glimpse of the pieces he chose to examine. In several discussions with Axel he has time and again told me how his life and work has been made miserable by people who read the book and then immediately put on the title of "expert". But spend even just an hour in a place like the Wisconsin Veterans Museum basement archives, and study the over FOUR DOZEN canteens they have in their collection (not even on display, just in storage) and you will realize that trying to quantify a subject as diverse as this based on a small book is completely futile. Within just this one museum the variation in size, spouts, strap holders, tin thickness, cover fabric, and straps is astronomical. Literally no two were exactly alike. Handle originals, study a wide variety, and catalog your findings once you've examined perhaps two hundred examples of the millions of canteens produced during the war, and then perhaps begin to draw conclusions based on your sampling. Don't read a three hundred page book, (a hundred pages of which deals with this particular subject,) and put on your "expert" badge.

Worth reading again for those who missed the above post first time around.


Luke: Where in the world did you find an original tin spout? Please tell me someone bought 5000 from Bannerman's in the 1950s and is selling them on e-bay.

[lukegilly13]

Re: US Canteens - Guaging Demand

Luke: Where in the world did you find an original tin spout? Please tell me someone bought 5000 from Bannerman's in the 1950s and is selling them on e-bay.

I ordered the canteen from Regimental Quartermaster's campaigner line. They had it listed as an Ulrich made canteen at an excellent price. I told them what I wanted and they sent one. I told them I was wanting a rolled tin spout and smaller sling keepers and they told me to send it back and they would "make it right." It came back to me with smaller keepers (I think probably a different canteen) and a note that said "We are sorry for the inconvenience. To ensure your satisfaction we had an original spout put on it."
Here is a link to a thread with pictures of the Ulrich canteen that fits the bill. He posts earlier in this linked thread that he does make the canteen in a hot dipped version and that RQ orders their Canteens from him with a hole in the keeper/retainer so he simply meets their request.
http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...+depot+canteen

Not trying to make an Ulrich commercial...but he does make the canteen you desire! I would call Dan Wambaugh or S&S or anyone else that carries them if I were you.

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: US Canteens - Guaging Demand

Folks,

Just a heads up that I had a nice chat with Axel after making my original post. He stated that he's working on two different sources of hot dipped tin and will be using that soon. We'll use his hot dipped items exclusively once he has it available!

[David Fox]

Re: US Canteens - Guaging Demand

Attended the huge...really huge...military collectors' show in Louisville Friday. Took me six ankle-punishing hours to make my way around it. 2000+ tables, I'd guess, and enough Nazi stuff to outfit a full Heer infantry regiment. With this thread in mind, I counted eight original converted M.1858 canteens for $100 down to $80, pre-negotiation asking price. Each body was sound and each had its canvas re-covering so shabby as to be collector unfriendly. By replacing the strap guides, removing the brass collar rings, and recovering...or not...one would have a usable original pre-1866 canteen. It's the way I went in the '70s and is obviously still an option today.

[teufelhund]

Re: US Canteens - Guaging Demand

I have an Ulrich canteen. They are very nice indeed. I do know from talking with others that the one big turn off to people is that he marks his canteens with his name on the spouts, body and on the sling loops and that folks feel it takes away from the authenticity of the canteen. Is he still doing this to his newer canteens? Other than that, I believe he is the only tinsmith that is making authentic Federal canteens these days.

[AndrewGrim]

Re: US Canteens - Guaging Demand

With this thread in mind, I counted eight original converted M.1858 canteens for $100 down to $80, pre-negotiation asking price. Each body was sound and each had its canvas re-covering so shabby as to be collector unfriendly. By replacing the strap guides, removing the brass collar rings, and recovering...or not...one would have a usable original pre-1866 canteen. It's the way I went in the '70s and is obviously still an option today.

So you are saying destroy a post war artifact to make an 1858 canteen?

[David Fox]

Re: US Canteens - Guaging Demand

Nope. There are scads of M.1858 canteens modified after the CW into what is generically known as M.1885 canteens out there; abused ones, ugly and unloved, having no collector value nor use in their present form. Think of it as restoring a 1969 Roadrunner by swapping out a 1980s replaced engine for an original 340 V8, knocking the 1917 additions off a Federal period house, cutting the hippie sew-ons off a first pattern Vietnam issue exposed-button jungle blouse, or, if you watch "Antiques Road Show", removing the accretion of dirt and replacing lost paint on an abused painting. It's bringing an underwhelming historical artifact back to its original incarnation. And, restored, making it useful again.