Authenticity problems. And solutions?

[GAR]

Gentlemen,

I wanted to share some thoughts I have with you all (and y'all) and hear some feedback. Let me preface by saying that my "tone" should be read as positive, not as a complaint, a criticism or a response to another thread or an individual. This is not meant to be a lecture, but hopefully a way to spark some new ideas and dialog. This is my favorite go-to site whenever I have a question. The wealth of knowledge is incredible and I love discussing our shared passion here. I have always been treated well and with respect, even when some of my questions came with the stink of new fish. Thanks for that, btw. But what I most enjoy about these discussions is that they cause us to think more about the great and terrible war that holds our fascination, rather than our always lacking reenactments of it.

Always lacking? I'm afraid so. Regardless of how "authentic" an event might be, war is impossible to truthfully reenact because the key ingredients of terror, death and destruction is thankfully missing. Until we wash our friend's body parts off of ourselves, take the life of a terrified boy in a different color uniform, primal scream without hearing our own voice, smell bodies of horses and men decomposing and wonder if we will survive this day, how authentic can we be? Authenticity is a matter of degrees, and these discussions help us in our efforts to try to honor those who didn't get to go home after the weekend was over.

So, IMO no impression is perfect, and no two are exactly the same. All we can hope for is constant improvement and pray we aren't too ridiculously fat or old by the time we peak. That is why we all need to embrace the ignorant and especially the young, as we ALL once were. We should always try to help, not ridicule their impressions, and continue to lead by example. What more can we do? How can we possibly defarb the hobby?

Possible solutions?

I think too many of us are micro viewing the hobby and need to switch to macro view. Proper buttons and hand stitching is great, and I admire the eye for the detail, but most of it is lost on the average spectator. I'm not saying by any means to stop doing it, but to also pull back to see the big picture.

Let's focus on the whole, not on the individual for a moment. What really separates us from what actually happened?
The biggest problems I see with our overall battlefield impressions, are:

1. Absence of death, destruction and terror.
Not too much we can do here, although I have seen a few ground charges go off and some "houses" blow up or burn, which is always a treat.
Terror? We are reenACTORS. It's understandable that no one wants to throw down their gun and run from the enemy advance, but designating a few from each company to do so would give more credence to the panic and fear that all soldiers had to be feeling. At the very least, don't allow yourself or your pards to show how much fun this can be. If you see someone smiling or laughing in a battle, step on their foot or something.

2.The numbers are too few.
Okay, nothing new here and we probably all agree. Each of us represents at least 50, but why aren't there more reenactors participating?

3. The median age is way too high.
Losing weight and covering the gray helps quite a bit, but why aren't more young people involved? My joke answer has been that too many of us are firing blanks. But joking aside, perhaps part of the problem is exposure? Most of us baby boomers grew up basking in the victory of WWII, with films and television shows of the 50's and 60's that actually glorified our wars and showed service to our country in a positive light. Viet Nam darkened that tone but 9/11 seemed to re-instill pride in our country and in our military. Let's hope the media coverage of the 150th events helps introduce more youngsters to our nation's greatest conflict. The only time Americans were defeated in a war, was the the one we waged on ourselves. Last year I set up a one man cavalry camp outside my son's Junior High School, and gave a brief lecture-demo to each of the five different hour Social Studies (history) classes after they started the chapter on the Civil War. The kids loved it, the school loved it, and my son's "cool rating" rose a bit. Oh, and I really enjoyed it, too. If you've never tried something like this, it's very gratifying.

4. Costs.
Times are hard and I know many with excellent impressions are having to cut back because of costs. The trend seems to be getting worse as more events are now becoming "pay to play" and now events like B/G Shiloh, expecting each reenactor to not only to pay to attend, but to bring $200+ in rolled cartridges? Why is this happening? Where is the uproar? What happened to them paying US bounties, providing powder and or food? This hobby is way too expensive already without us having to pay to be allowed to provide the product that the promoters are selling. We are the product they sell. Giving them our service for free, well okay. Paying to give our services to cover their expenses, okay. Paying to give our services at events that are charging admission to the public? This seems insane to me. I heard some events this year are charging reenactors $40 each to participate. Where is this trend taking us? Does anyone know what Gettysburg is doing next year?


Here's some food for thought. Ask yourself how authentic your impression would be if you were an average 16 year old and just starting out? How badly do we REALLY want to raise the authenticity bar? Enough to put our money where our mouth's are?

Perhaps... We could be donating our used gear to needy newcomers, rather than selling it to each other? Sounds like a possible tax write off to me.

Perhaps... We could start a national emergency fund that can help pay for gas for those who otherwise couldn't afford to go? Maybe a carpool forum for those who have room for one more?

Perhaps... We could all become a mentor for someone who is interested but doesn't know where to start?

Many of us here are doing some of these things already, and that's great. If you're not, that's your choice. But trying to improve the hobby is sure better than just bitchin' about it. Just saying.

Anyone else have any ideas on how to improve the hobby? Please chime in.

Thanks for indulging me.

Gary

[GrumpyDave]

Re: Authenticity problems. And solutions?

"It's a Hobby." And, that's the answer. Period.

[csuniforms]

Re: Authenticity problems. And solutions?

All of us who have done this for years-- I started 40 years ago--have thought about it and done everything you talk about here-- from lending equipment to pondering the great question of, are we doing these Civil War Soldiers a disservice, by recreating a Battle or we honoring their sacrifice??? I say honoring and by recreating the Civil War Soldier, we bring history to life for many--"so to speak"-- No, we cant and believe we dont want to have anyone die during a reenactment or dont ever in our minds not know that in the real Battle, blood and brains, death and suffering were all around you... We know that too.

The great Struggle between Authenticity and Mediocrity is ongoing-- No, we should not discourage someone who shows up in a borrowed farby uniform, but thank them for coming-- The only thing a Civil War Authentic can do is lead by example-- that is it-- trying or working to change someones mind is impossible, futile, and makes real enemies-- let them wallow in their rayon and black work shoes and $20 cap-- I dont care-- What does keep me going is that "I know"-- I am recreating the life of a Civil War soldier as closely as I can-- and the difference between me and "them" is immesaurable and outstanding-- even the public gets that--

CSuniforms
Tom Arliskas

[Jalaco]

Re: Authenticity problems. And solutions?

All good ideas, Mr. Bradford. I actually love playing a 'coward' during battles; timidly following my company a few steps behind and crouching at every volley, or running away during an advance. Considering (especially at mainstream battle events) that there are never enough hits, it really makes your unit stand out, along with taking more hits in general.

One thing I do is attend a lot of mainstream living histories. I don't know about everywhere else, but in Up-State New York, there are plenty of small, local living histories that are conducted but are, sadly, far from authentic. I show up with a bed roll instead of an A-Frame, cook salt pork over the fire instead of using the food vendor, etc. The public absolutely loves it, and as long as you don't 'preach' to the other reenactors, they respond positivly to it. I'm only 18 at the time, but one older gentleman at a LH actually began asking me what unit I belong to, how I got started in campaigning, etc. A possible convert at some other time?

Just one idea. Go to 1 or 2 local 'farby' events every year and just do your own thing, maybe with a few pards. Relish in the fact that you're the most hardcore son of a bitch there, really educate the public, and put yourself out there; show mainstream reenactors that hardcores are friendly, aren't 'stich nazis' and wana have a good time too, just at a higher level of authenticity.

[reddcorp]

Re: Authenticity problems. And solutions?

"It's a Hobby." And, that's the answer. Period.

You nailed it, Grumpy Dave. It's a hobby and it serves the differing needs of the participants. When it isn't enjoyable, people tend to move on to something different.
A.Redd

Modertator Note: Andy, you have to post your first and last name here. Not initials. Thems the rules. Go ahead and set your auto signature. Herb Coats, Moderator.

Rules can be found here: http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...w_faq_item1998

[GAR]

Re: Authenticity problems. And solutions?

Yeah! Don't you just hate it when some new guy comes in with just a couple of years of experience, and tries to tell us old timers how to fix things? Who the hell is he, anyway? Where does he get off, damn fool, preaching to the choir like he knows something we don't!
You're right! I say we lynch me! :wink_smil
Actually, I do see the validity of your statements and we very well may be stuck with the way things are. Then again, the way it was yesterday isn't the way it is today. There has been progress. There have been setbacks. 40 years ago when some of you started, there wasn't a possibility to discuss things on the internet and be able to reach the entire world of opinion in real time. Or 20 years ago, for that matter.
With the exception of "pay to play", I didn't suppose for a minute that any of what I wrote hasn't been discussed before, but perhaps resurrecting an old discussion will allow for a fresh approach or an idea. And although it's old hat to those of you who've been around, 18 year old gents like Jory Maloney might not have heard it all before. They might have a fresh perspective.
Flying to the moon was impossible, right up to the moment we actually did it. All that progress, from start to finish, only took a decade. So improving the hobby is not feasible? I only suggest we just discuss it and see where it goes, or stays.

Here's one for you that just occurred to me. Although authentic gear costs much more to make, there is still quite a bit of profit in it. Why don't our approved vendors offer the first purchased product to a new client at a much closer to cost price? Get people hooked on quality and let them see for themselves how good it is? Has anyone suggested that? I did ask around here and at cwr before I bought my Blockade Runner A tent, and I will now likely be buying from them again for an officer wall tent, because I now know and like the quality and the guarantee it comes with. Repeat business.

As for the rest of my gear, it varies. Out here in Kansas, I don't know anyone who owns a $500 coat, so I've never actually seen one. Since I can't feel and see the quality for myself, I bought my "made in the USA" enlisted shell jacket a few years back for $200, but only after trying several on for a proper fit. Paying $200 to $300 more for a pig in a poke didn't appeal to me at the time, especially when there are many other cavalrymen in the area that have bought the $65 jackets and no one seems to mind or even notice. Yep, I live far away from the better events and even the mainstream "farb fests" are still not that close by. So my motivation to raise the bar is self-serving.

Onward and upward.

[Philip cav]

Re: Authenticity problems. And solutions?

Yes I too believe that I will constantley improve in my impression over time. When I joined this hobby a few years ago, there was no good quality units that I knew of in my area. Now there are 4 that I know of.

[Doughboy]

Re: Authenticity problems. And solutions?

Not sure where the profit is in making authentic gear! I have bought and sold much over the years and never made a profit. I believe most of the authentic vendors will tell you if they paid themselves a living wage (read slightly over mimimum wage) for producing what they do the cost of goods would probably treble. I know they are getting more now than the "old" days but fabric prices are up due to fewer makers and labor is still basically charged on a heavily discounted basis.

[john duffer]

Re: Authenticity problems. And solutions?

" Why don't our approved vendors offer the first purchased product to a new client at a much closer to cost price? "

Or, to eliminate the middle man, perhaps you could offer a rebate payment from your own money to those new clients to make things easier on them. Some of the vendors may consider their labor in the same light you view yours after all. :)

[guad42]

Re: Authenticity problems. And solutions?

Perhaps Grumpy Dave said it best when he put it simply (and lived up to his moniker). It's a Hobby.

Obviously you make points that have been discussed here and in other forums and around the fires of many camps. Without speaking for most, it seems the general focus of Authentics is to perfect the common soldier experience, through research, material culture, language, etc. Its done a lot for me to do research, and to benefit from others.

But you are right about one thing. The Civil War experience was not a single man and a small collection of like minded buddies camping in the woods. It was a war of companies, regiments, brigades and so on. For all their "charms", big top circus events, large and small offer us a chance to participate in companies and battalions for the "war" side of the experience.

There is nothing in any of these events that equates to the actual experience of war. But there is something to be said for seeing an entire regiment or dare I say a brigade on the move. Something a Civil War soldier would have seen everyday of his soldier life.
That said, I'm looking forward to some of next year's 150th events.

As to your other points regarding age, mentoring, etc. These things come in waves and usually by generation. Just as the Civil War hobby was helped by Ken Burns, "Glory", Gettysburg, etc., so wasn't the WWII hobby helped by Tom Hanks. Its generational.

-Sam Dolan

[RNMCSA]

Re: Authenticity problems. And solutions?

Jory,
You did a good job of cowardice at Lee Takes Command. I also like the idea of doing more local events especialy Living History's. Here in the Hampton Roads area we have a great place that is not taken advantage of very much. I think it is a prime location for Authentics to take an interest in and utilyze. End View Plantation is a great place and they have a full size redoubt. They are also friendly to reenactors. Now for something compleatly differant. I have only been in the hoby for a short while and have been fortunate to have so far only attended quality events as a particapant. I did go to the reenactment they had there as a spectator and it was pretty farby but the crowd loved it. I think we need to curb the in fighting and work to promote and further the hobby. Our example of authenticity is cathing I think and will only continue to spread if we are out there giving the example to follow.

[dixieflyer]

Re: Authenticity problems. And solutions?

Here's one for you that just occurred to me. Although authentic gear costs much more to make, there is still quite a bit of profit in it. Why don't our approved vendors offer the first purchased product to a new client at a much closer to cost price? Get people hooked on quality and let them see for themselves how good it is? Has anyone suggested that? I did ask around here and at cwr before I bought my Blockade Runner A tent, and I will now likely be buying from them again for an officer wall tent, because I now know and like the quality and the guarantee it comes with. Repeat business.

As for the rest of my gear, it varies. Out here in Kansas, I don't know anyone who owns a $500 coat, so I've never actually seen one. Since I can't feel and see the quality for myself, I bought my "made in the USA" enlisted shell jacket a few years back for $200, but only after trying several on for a proper fit. Paying $200 to $300 more for a pig in a poke didn't appeal to me at the time, especially when there are many other cavalrymen in the area that have bought the $65 jackets and no one seems to mind or even notice. Yep, I live far away from the better events and even the mainstream "farb fests" are still not that close by. So my motivation to raise the bar is self-serving.

Gary,
Quite a bit of profit, . . . . are you serious? Maybe when it comes to mainstream junk, especially some of goods coming out of Asia, this is true, but when it comes to correctly tailored or correctly constructed items there is little to no profit margin for most.
I've known quite a few folks over the years who have produced some fine items. Some no longer do so because they are no longer in this world, others have quit because of burn out and/or health reasons, and a few are left still. Of all the ones I've known, only two, maybe three, ever did it as a full time job. Why? Because after deducting for materials, they were making minimum wage, and most of the time less. Most did so out of a passion for history, and wanted to see folks carrying good, quality items. I've held a few $500 coats in my time (and some were $500 from twenty years ago, not 2012), and I can honestly say every one I've seen like that was worth every penny in terms of workmanship, labor, etc. Now, I know I cannot afford a $500 coat and some other pricey, but correct, items, so I'm with you on the affordability issue. However, because of that I purposely chose impressions where I can afford correctly tailored or manufactured items. I can also feel your pain when it comes to practicing your craft in an area where no one seems to give a flip about being correct or not. I labored under that yoke for years, and for a long time belonged to groups where most of the membership lived many hours away.

Grumpy Dave, as to the "it's a hobby" statement made earlier: well yeah, that's true . . . to a point, or at least with many/with some. However, for a lot of the folks that inhabit this forum it's more of an avocation in the sense that one approaches it with a passion and energy one would a job. It's something most of us feel actually driven to do. I have a couple of hobbies, they're something I do with spare time when I have it, and when I don't, I don't (like building a scale aircraft model, or flying a combat flight sim). For some it's a hobby, for some it's more, and then for some, well, it's just too much really, LOL!

Jory, to the idea of going to less authentic events as an evangelist of the church of authenticity, and witnessing through actions and deeds rather than accusatory words, that's a great idea. I know it's because of some "hard-core" guys going to a mainstream event, and because I had the chutzpah to go up to them and ask them "what's the deal", I got "saved" so-to-speak, and I've been on the campaigner journey in one form or another ever since. I've tried doing it myself it in years past, with some mixed results. However, I got out of the habit by growing tired of the nasty comments and attitudes exhibited towards me by some of the main-streamers, people who automatically made assumptions about me without my ever saying a word to them. It's a great idea, and if you or others can pull it off and do some little good, I say bully for you pard!

Gary, nothing wrong with opening up a dialogue to generate discussion. However, be aware that, like the poor, these problems have been with us since the old days and will be with us in the future. Some of us oldsters have the scars from beating our heads against the wall trying to educate folks to a better way for years. No one is putting down the fact that you are trying to improve things per se, rather I think they just don't want you to have to suffer the contusions as well. ;)

[GAR]

Re: Authenticity problems. And solutions?

[QUOTE=john duffer;224763]" Why don't our approved vendors offer the first purchased product to a new client at a much closer to cost price? "

Or, to eliminate the middle man, perhaps you could offer a rebate payment from your own money to those new clients to make things easier on them. Some of the vendors may consider their labor in the same light you view yours after all. :)[/QUOTE

I'm not sure I understand where the negativity and aggression of this post and others like it comes from.

Every authentic vendor I've had contact with really has been the salt of the earth. How much profit they make is up to them and it was a suggestion based on my own personal business experiences. They obviously have managed to stay in business through some tough times, and giving a discount on the first item a new client buys, does generate a larger client base and more business. Now perhaps they have all the business they can currently handle, I don't know. That is why it was offered as a suggestion.

FWIW, I owned a small security business in Los Angles, supplying uniformed officers for the film industry's shooting locations. I was the President and CEO of SET Security, Incorporated, which may sound impressive, but I was the only officer, which means I also took out the trash and did every task myself as a one man show. That means I worked very long hours every single day of the week plus was on call 24/7. Even during times that I was just scraping by, I would still literally give my services away to get new clients to at least try us once, because I knew we were the best and they'd come back. It helped build my business up and actually raised the standards of the other security companies that competed for the same business. I went from unknown and nothing at all to becoming Steven Spielberg's (among many others) security company of choice in a period of 5 years. I have personally bodyguarded Jackie Chan, Tom Hanks, Joan Collins, Ellen Degenerous, Danny DeVito, Gary Oldman, Jodi Foster and a dozen others whose names you know. You try breaking into the Hollywood Good Old Boy network and let me know how well you do. So I talk this talk because I have walked this walk.

I am 58 years old. I've been an actor on Broadway and on multiple soap operas, and also worked on a few films and television. I worked as a stuntman with B. H. Barry and several others and occasionally as a fight coordinator on television, and taught stage combat in NYC with Rick Sordelet. I choreographed and performed the open field horse joust for two years at the New York Renaissance Festival and was brought back the next season to train my replacement team. I put 35,000 miles on my Harley, mostly on long, cross country road trips. I am PADI certified scuba for open water and hunter. I was captain of my h.s., class A wrestling team in Michigan and rated 1st in the state at 167lbs. I passed my FAA exam at the age of 15. I like long walks on the beach, have been married only once and we've been devoted to each other for 28 years and counting. I gave up my business in 2005 to move to Kansas for a healthier and safer place to raise our two sons, now 19 and 13. They both have special needs and I have been a stay at home dad since we moved here. I worked as a reenactor specialist in Louisiana on Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter which premiers tomorrow. I'm a member of the Sante Fe Desperados, which is a cowboy reenactment group and rather than accept what was available, I've formed the 9th Kansas Volunteer Cavalry.

Every time I've worked to improve something, it improved, but it never came easily. Every time there were those who resisted or stated that it couldn't be done, so this is nothing new. If you think the state of the Union, and of the Confederacy is fine as it is, I'll keep my mouth shut and I apologize for the intrusion.

I'd love to hear more about my lack of qualifications to ask what we might do to help reenacting, but I have to prepare for a film shoot this weekend about Quantrill's Raid on Olathe, so I'll just have to wait until Monday. This is a great website, but like most others, a bit too supportive of the negative at times.

Peace out.

[Michael Comer]

Re: Authenticity problems. And solutions?

Stepping in as moderator here folks. I and some of my colleagues foresee this thread having potential for a lot of argument and that may deteriorate rapidly into keyboard shouting matches etc.

Gary, you have put your points on the table for folks to think about. I think at this point it might be best to leave it at that so I am going to be the Blue Meanie this time and close the thread.