Bayonet Scabbards

[dixieflyer]

Kind of a dumb thought or question, but here it goes anyway.

I completely understand why producers of leather gear for us have to make bayonet scabbards to fit Enfield vs. Springfield, original vs. repro, etc. However, I cannot picture the various contractors going to this much trouble. Logical thinking (dangerous for me, I know) ;) leads me to think that a contractor of for the U.S. gov't would make a bayonet scabbard of a certain length to fit a '61 Springfield (since it was the official shoulder weapon) and let it go at that. If said accoutrements were issued out to Federal troops who had been issued Springfields, it was just a matter of "tough cheese" and they had to make do either going to the effort of wetting, shoving the Enfield bayonet in, and making it fit, or just letting weather, rain, and time do the work for them.

Am I totally off base with this line of thinking? Or did U.S. contractors specifically make scabbards to fit Enfield vs. Springfield bayonets? (This doesn't even touch on scabbards for all of the oddball European smoothbores, Austrians, etc.)

[Third Mainer]

Re: Bayonet Scabbards

Warren,
Accoutrements were generally manufactured as a "stand" to go with a weapon based on caliber, whether it was rifled and so on. I can only presume that this means scabbards were made to fit the U.S. issue weapons associated with those calibers. The blade differences being what they are, I cannot imagine it being any more creative than shoving an oddball bayonet in until it fits. FWIW, I just tried both an original 1842 and 1855 bayonet in an original seven-rivet scabbard, made by Metzger in Philadelphia. The 1855 was tight, but the 1842 was a perfect fit.
Mike Pearson

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Bayonet Scabbards

Hallo!

I do not recall, off the top of my head, any U.S. effort at foreign bayonet scabbard making except for a very small number of Austian scabbards as they were cruciform and not triangular. (Although with the wide mix of foreign stuff, that seems odd if scabbards were not NUG part of the "stand of arms.")

Up to a point, and perhaps the major point... Springfield versus Enfield was close enough for government work. Meaning, the M1855 had a blade width of
25/32" while the P1853 had a blade width of 26/32."

So, for a marginal 1/32 of an inch, make do...

:)

Curt

[dixieflyer]

Re: Bayonet Scabbards

That's my logic too Curt and Michael. As I said, I completely understand why current manufacturers "tailor" their goods towards one or the other, and my question is not a statement on their practices. More specifically, my son is looking at purchasing gear second hand, he hasn't bought a riflemusket yet, but I told him that whether he gets a scabbard made for a Springfield or Enfield is of secondary importance in my mind. He/we can make it work just as they had to then.
My logic was based off of my limited association with the regular military of the late 20th c. and I'm quite certain quartermaster sgts. were no warmer or fuzzier back then than those I encountered 120+ years later. I could not picture a pile of accoutrements made for .58/.577 cal. riflemuskets to be issued with separate piles for Enfield scabbards or Springfield scabbards. You drew your "schtuff" and continued to move, making do as need be. We shall endeavor to persevere and do the same ourselves. ;)

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Bayonet Scabbards

Hallo!

Just an aside...

We moderns are plagued by Italian, Indian, and Pakistani makers of bayonets who do not feel the need to reproduce exact sized and dimensioned copies.
So, while authentic makers make precise copies of Period scabbards, not all repro bayonets are created equal. And the original "Springfield/Enfield"
1/32" blade difference does not always hold true. (Now, for lads who use original bayonets...)

Curt

[dixieflyer]

Re: Bayonet Scabbards

Exactly Curt, ergo my statement of "knowing" why current makers have to do what they do. My son has been around enough of our brethren by now to know he wants an original bayonet if at all possible.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Bayonet Scabbards

Photographic evidence (mainly of Lorenz Rifles) show the bayonets sticking several inches out of the Federal issue scabbards. So in at least some cases the troops just made them fit as best they could.

All the best,

[tiremann]

Re: Bayonet Scabbards

Does anyone happen to know whether Federal units who were issued Enfields were issued Enfield scabbards and frogs, or did they just uses the Springfield setup? I find my Enfield scabbard a pain because of its length and tendency to move around and get tangled in my legs, while the Springfield with its built-in angle keeps the scabbard out of the way of my moving parts. My Enfield bayonet fits my Springfield scabbard okay for length and tightness, but the orientation of the flat side is the complete opposite, making drawing and replacing more difficult. Since I have both muskets and like to trade off at re-enactments I would like to be able to avoid switching scabbards each time. Any thoughts?