Deteriorating Flags and Various Items

[C.G. Williams]

I'm not sure if this discussion has come up on this forum, and if it has, well here we go again. This past St. Patricks Day, myself and a few friends marched in the St. Patricks Day Parade in New York City with the 69th NY. Before we went over to the step off point, everyone met at the 69th's Armory on 25th and Lexington if I'm correct. Now the 69th's Armory has a decent sized museum of items regarding the unit since the Civil War. This is where I began to get sick to my stomach. Their museum consists of glass cases from the 1920's with orginal items from the orginal 69th. Some of the items rotting away to nothing, forage caps with no brims, frock coats with holes, overcoats falling apart at the seems, General Meaghers sword rusting away to nothing. If I began to name all the items they have rotting away in these non-temperature controlled cases I would be here all day. Now if that was not bad enough, they have about 15 original Civil War battle flags and presentation flags flaking away to nothing. These flags are kept in the similiar glass cases rolled up in plastic. Each of the flags has a card in front of it describing where it was used. One of the cards stated, " Used during 1864-1865 has orginal bullet holes in it, along with blood stains". Most of the flags have no color left to them, they are like a gray brown in color and most are in shreds. Now I know this is not the only place in the country where preservation has been a problem. I was talking with one of my friends about this problem, and he was telling me about original flags that are hanging blowing in the air in the 7th Armory in NYC. He said "they are just falling apart, and nothing is being done to save them". Something needs to be done about this situation before it is too late, before these items are gone forever. From what I have gathered so far, the state of NY is in charge of these items, and they refuse to do anything. Your thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Here is a website with some more information: http://www.spinola.org/47ny/uhistory/nyflags.htm

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Deteriorating Flags and Various Items

The best quick reference is the Museum of the Confederacy's flag conservation project. There is a small amount of information on the site.
http://www.moc.org/xcolflags.htm Drop them a note with your concerns and they will respond with a suggestion or two.

Conservation of historic artifacts is wildly expensive and un-justly so. But since I cannot editorialize here I just hope I can get away with that mild statement.

In-house museum projects are manageable because the have the resources and conservators on site and do not need to deal with private labs.

[KarinTimour]

Civil War Flags, North and South -- How You Can Help

Dear Mr. Murray:

When it comes to Civil War Flags in New York State, there is plenty to be done, and a number of concerned folks have paved the way to make it easier for others to help.

As I recall, in addition to the flags carried by New York units, this state also has a fairly large collection of Confederate flags, captured by New York units. I know there were several attempts to get these banners back to their home states, but I don't know if any of those efforts were successful. Perhaps someone else can fill us all in?

There is a website that has action steps and concrete suggestions for those who would be willing to write an email or send a check. Unfortunately, I am a unable to post urls so that they turn into links. I don't know why, but that's the facts. If you want to get to either of the pages I found that had information about restoration of Civil War flags in New York state, I found them through doing a Yahoo search on "Civil War Flags in New York State."

This is the url that my computer told me was one of the pages, though it doesn't link to anything now that I typed it here:

www.mywebpages@comcast.net/33dny/nyflags

There was a considerable movement started several years ago, with funding by General Patacki and the NYS Legislature to hire and finance a restorer, who has been steadily working away, and in 2001 they shared 10 flags that had been restored. I found a website that had their press release, hope I can get the link to work:

This is the second link that I found, which also doesn't work if you try to connect through this link. Exit out and try a Yahoo search, and it will come up for you. Sorry for the inconvenience.

https://www.civilwarnews.com/archives/articles/NY_restored_flags.htm

Keep in mind that these flags have been languishing for over a hundred years, rolled up, often sealed in 1930s plastic or celluloid wrappings in non-temperature controlled environments. When you see a battle flag with bloodstains on it, most of the posters here see valour, sacrifice, courage and gallantry that must not be forgotten or allowed to rot and be eaten by insects and mold.

Others see a piece of ratty material which you want to spend literally thousands of state dollars on, just to keep it in it's present condition and keep it from rotting further.

State politicians, even those with aspirations for offices far beyond NYS have to weigh which voters they can make points with and which they will alienate when they make a public stand on funding issues.

New York State leads the nation in HIV infection. We have a considerable national ranking when it comes to things like per capita poverty, percentage of children living in hunger, and homelessness. We have an increasing TB rate, flat growth in our economic sector and a very high number of people who are incarcerated (imprisoning someone costs more than $60,000 per year per prisoner). We also have New York City which is either first or second in the nation in terms of terrorist targets. We're in the middle of a huge court battle about whether the public schools in New York City have been short changed on their share of the allocation of state funds (short version: some are claiming that upstate public school districts have been given much more per student for decades). All of these needs are competing for the state dollars you are talking about.

You need to make a good case for why dollars should be diverted from paying for daily human needs to preserving 100 year old silk. There is a case to be made, and there are some very influential allies who are on our side in getting some of those state dollars -- veterans' groups, Civil War Round Tables, historians who have worked hard to get things this far. They could use your help.

If you live in New York state, your help counts twice as much -- it's an election year. Give your local state and federal representatives a call to ask what they've done on behalf of this project. Don't know who represents you in Albany or Washington? Go to the website for the League of Women Voters, they can tell you in a heartbeat. The Leage of Women Voters, BTW is nonpartisan and only interested in a) helping people become registered to vote and b) providing voters, male and female with the information they need to vote their consciences. When you get to their site, click on "Voter Information" -- at the bottom of the page is a box where you enter your zip code to find your elected officials. It will print out a page with contact information (email, phone numbers, local offices), AND how they voted on recent important issues. You can locate your local, state and federal representatives on this site:

This link DOES work! HURRAH!

https://www.lwv.org

If you live outside of New York state, your help is also needed -- more than one of our state officials desires national office and would like to have high name recognition with folks who are used to speaking up and who are registered voters.

Everyone can write a check, send a money order or mail a dollar bill in an envelope. If money is tight, carry a peanut butter sandwich to work one day a month and send the money you would have spent on lunch. If the schoolchildren of America financed the base of the Statue of Liberty with five and ten cent donations, surely we can do the same for preservation of these flags. A check of any size will make a difference.

Sincerely,
Karin Timour
"The Stories in the Socks" National Conference on Women in the Civil War, Richmond, VA, June, 2004
Period Knitting -- Socks, Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[C.G. Williams]

Re: Deteriorating Flags and Various Items

Some great information and thanks for posting. Anyone else have anything to add.....

[Glenn Milner]

Re: Deteriorating Flags and Various Items

Yes,
We reenactors are an interesting lot. We'll spend thousands on a custom made reproduction of a flag while the real thing rots. I bet if you lumped together all the money spent on repro 69th NY regimental banners and little brass harps, you'd have a nice little sum there. Although this particular example is in New York, the same basic thing happens all over the country.
Now, please remind me again, why do we do this? BTW, IMO, no state government is ever going to appropriate funds to conserve Confederate flags. We even had a legislator call for them to be piled up and burned at one time not too many years ago. Most of the conserved flags here (Alabama) result from private donations which must be passed through a "Friends of the Archives" organization. Here, a good chunk of those funds have originated from mainstream reenacting organizations and events. Bill Rambo has been, and remains, a positive driving force behind this effort in Alabama.
If it happens at all, it will happen as a result of private money. When I was participating in a good many cemetery ceremonies, we always passed the hat in the crowd and sent that money to the Friends of the Archives.
So, get busy. And, if you ever find yourself in Montgomery, drop some big number, folding money into the little plexiglass box. You can't miss it, it's right across from blood-stained flags.
Glenn Milner

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Deteriorating Flags and Various Items

I see this written a lot by horrified history buffs: "________ is happening! SOMEONE ought to do something!"

How 'bout YOU?

Nothing gets done until a concerned person gets it rolling. Our group contributes to the conservation of New York State battle flags in the collection of Onondaga County (Syracuse NY). Adopt a place and start working for them. The reenactors of the 122nd New York--a small, 12-man group from Syracuse--have raised over $130,000 for the Onondaga conservation project in the last few years. If a group that small can have such results and effect, surely it can be done elsewhere.

How 'bout YOU?

[NY Pvt]

Re: Deteriorating Flags and Various Items

I hate when this topic comes up. It is almost too painful to think about.

Can things be done to help preserve these flags (hundreds of them)? Yeah I am sure something can, but I don’t know what will ultimately make the difference. Were not only fighting for funding but as everyday goes by the situation for these flags get worse and worse.

About 4 or 5 years ago my unit, the 150th NY started to build a fund to help preserve our regimental and national flags, which have been sitting up in Albany since shortly after the war. The state started right away destroying them. In order to store them they cut the poles. But anyways, our unit raised a few thousand dollars (I am not sure of the exact dollar amount) to be put towards the preservation of the 150th’s flags. When we inquired about how to get the ball rolling the state said basically that we could donate the money but it would be put into a general fund to restore the flags and they would chose the flags that would get the money. So chances are even if the 69th NY raised 50,000 to restore their flags they couldn’t demand that the money go to restore their flags. It would probably sit in a fund to be used when the legislature finds time to act on this topic. In the end our unit did not give the money to the state. The flags were judged to be past repair and will continue to rot until there is nothing left. As a result we voted the money back into the unit’s general fund where most of it now sits. This could be the case with the 69th’s and 7th’s flag that they may be beyond repair. I hope not.

The only way I see the situation improving is if we elect people to the legislature that give a damn about this issue. But with all of the issues facing New York right now, I feel that this will not happen (at least anytime soon) and most of the flags with deteriorate into oblivion. So in my opinion funds are a secondary issues to the legislature right now. All we can do is pray.

[RyanBWeddle]

Re: Deteriorating Flags and Various Items

There are many problems here, and yes it is a shame that more is not done to preserve these relics...by individuals/states/etc. But sometimes the 'state' isn't the best owner of flags in the long run . . . (look at the Ohio Historical Society's work to preserve their collection and making up for decades of poor custodial efforts (( my father remembers in the 1950s-1960s going to the Ohio Statehouse and in the rotunda seeing the various battleflags on display and noting that every so often bits of silk would waft down from the flags on to the rotunda floor to be swept into the dustbin)) ).

I now live within walking distance of the 69th Armory and stopped in a couple weekends ago to see the Irish Brigade flags in their cases ...

Although in the case of the NYC armories, most of the flags are not the property of the State, rather the private Nat.Guard Veterans Associations which have legal/custodial ownership of these items. In some cases there are on-going legal battles as to who indeed has ownership/purvue over these flags . . .

[Kate Vogel]

Re: Deteriorating Flags and Various Items

The museum which I just completed my internship at has an 1866 flag that was presented in honor of the veterans of Hartland immediately following their return. It was nailed (no, I'm not kidding) to the wall of the townhall in 1890 (which eventually became the museum) and stayed there until 1960. It was appraised by the textiles goddess at MSU and restoration of it was going to carry a price tag of approximately $12,000. That's more than 10 times the annual operating budget of the museum. Despite efforts on my part, it's now back in storage, rotting away once more. The "curators" of the museum are always tickled to death when they see me handling a garment with white cotton gloves and they had a hard time containing laughter when they saw the staff at the Michigan Historical Society handling our flag like it was the Queen of Sheba's dress. Cost is a major factor. Textile preservation is such a specialized field and consulting runs between $75 and $125 per hour, depending on the who, what and where of the matter.

Apparently there used to be a nice sized collection of mid 19th century flags but due to the excellent training of museum "staff" they haven't been seen or heard from in almost fifteen years. This was the same group of volunteers that apparently shoved a sheer 1850s dress on a mannikan that was about ten inches too round in the waist for it to ever possibly fit.

Maybe it's because I've become very cynical about this, but sometimes people just don't give a damn, no matter what you do. There are days when I feel that if someone gave them a check for $40,000 they would just tuck it away in their savings account. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. It absolutely sucks.

Sorry for the rant, folks.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Deteriorating Flags and Various Items

Thank you Katie for echoing my sentiments on this topic. As a stated before conservation services are far too expensive and most small municipal facilities cannot handle it. The things archival/material/textile conservationists want to save are disappearing because they have priced themselves above the reach of most clients. They are quite content working only for those few that can afford the services.

A local museum paid $575.00 to an outside source to have a 1870's cigar conserved. Damn!

I will not give any suggestions on material conservation for I do not want to be blasted by the ''pros'', but I will say it ain't rocket science. It takes steady hands and some good sense and there are many of us with those.

[mladair]

Re: Deteriorating Flags and Various Items

You might try getting ahold of Kerry Chartkoff or Matt VanAcker at the Michigan Historical Center. Michigan has a relatively successful Save the Flags program. Various organizations and reenacting units raise money to "adopt" a flag. This acts as seed money towards its preservation. My unit finally raised enough to adopt un "unkown" artillery guidon last fall. I believe it was in the range of about $2000. In addition to raising money through whatever means you can come up with, the state provides a very attractive poster for your organization to sell. These have proved to be quite popular items, and people are more apt to put out some money when they get something in return. http://www.sos.state.mi.us/history/m.../flagsave.html

I've been fortunate enough to have a couple of tours of the storage room where the Michigan Battle Flags are kept. Looking at flags like the remnants of the 24th Michigan's which had 6 flag-bearers fall under it the first day of Gettysburg is just totally humbling. (The 24th suffered something like 80% casualties that day.)

The flag my unit adopted has a rather intersting history of it's own. It was found in the trash! A couple was helping an elderly person clean out his/her house when they found some items in the trash. They decided to look things over and discovered a whole series of letters from the war. In one envelope, they discovered this flag! Hard to believe that somebody was just going to toss stuff like that out!

Katie: Howdy from a neighbor to the north (Fenton)!! Keep up the good work! Too many people in our area have just given up. Just take a look at downtown Fenton (or the lack of it!) I know how it feels sometimes to be swimming upriver. Just when you feel like giving up, somthing positive come along. I've been trying to raise money to place bronze flag holders on all the vets in Oakwood Cemetery here in Fenton. After several articles in the paper, numerous inquiries, things just didn't seem to be going anywhere. I had only raised about $1000 out of an estimated $14000. Well, along comes the American Legion and they decided to purchase $15000 worth of flag holders for all the Fenton area cemeteries. I was thrilled, stunned, and frustrated all at once! The frustration came from the fact that the local citizens couldn't dig into their pockets and make a few donations. Here are these veterans doing it for their own comrades, and the rest of the public could care less.

Have you ever been to the museum up here in Fenton? We have a small, but quite priceless CW and GAR collection. In fact we have a flag too that is probably in just about the same shape as yours. It was carried by a Fenton Cav soldier during the war. It's folded up in a display case right now. I would be hesitant to even touch it. It has always been a bit of a pipe-dream of mine to get this thing preserved. Maybe we should join forces and start our own local "Save the Flags" program!

[Kate Vogel]

Re: Deteriorating Flags and Various Items

Matt,

I haven't been able to get up the the Fenton museum as I generally am running around working at the Florence B. Dearing, but I have every intention of getting up there sometime this spring. Give me a holler if you're interested in a tour of the "non-displayed" artifacts at my museum. I'd be more than happy to give you a tour. I'm going to echo you here and say what an excellent resource the MHC is.

Garrison,

"As a stated before conservation services are far too expensive and most small municipal facilities cannot handle it. The things archival/material/textile conservationists want to save are disappearing because they have priced themselves above the reach of most clients. They are quite content working only for those few that can afford the services."

This is kind of like saying "Doctors provide a necessary service. People will die without them and not everyone can afford them so prices should be slashed dramatically" (I'm not trying to start an ENTIRELY off topic debate about the current state of affairs as far as medical expenses are concerned, so please don't go there) Truly qualified textile specialists have dropped exorbitant amounts of money on highly selective, not-very-affordable graduate schools, and have excelled in undergraduate work (think-organic chemistry galore+super demanding art history + history course work). While it's absolutely depressing to not be able to afford to have a flag professionally mounted, preserved, and restored, it's just how things are, unfortunately. We were lucky to have a nice size chunk of our consulting fee taken off because we're a non-profit organization and the woman quite frankly felt sorry for us. Unfortunately, doing pro bono work is just not how people in that profession or any other make their money.

As someone who has to struggle to get the funding to pay for $70 acid free storage boxes that are large enough for my purposes, a climate control system (just never going to happen, but I can wish), and any other various sundries, I sympathize with you. However, in my admittedly limited experience, it seems to me that people do not necessarily WANT to charge $75 per hour consulting fees or $125 per hour restoration fees. It's just what they need to do in order to make ends meet. My dad doesn't WANT to have his patients charged ridiculous amounts of money for what should be cheap drugs to put them to sleep during surgery; he has to do as such in order to run our household.

There are relatively affordable ways for temporary fixes on preservation (properly washed muslin layers in otherwise acidic boxes then covered with several layers of (buffered or non-buffered as the case may be) acid free tissue paper. Note: this only works for SUPER temporary storage and isn't encouraged for long term storage by any means.

The moral of the story: preservation, be it of land or a regiment's flag, is not cheap. So, get directly involved (join your historical society), volunteer (ask about positions at your local museum) and raise some money for reputable causes where your money won't just sit there collecting interest. It's easy to sit on your bum and bemoan the rotting away and neglect of our history; it's an entirely different animal to get heavily involved.

My apologies for the length of this monster.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Deteriorating Flags and Various Items

Katie, you are right, ''...it's just how things are...''.

[KarinTimour]

Hold it Right there, one cotton-picking minute

WARNING: This is the post with the pep talk and the beginnings of an action plan-- if you don't want to hear it, skip on by, cause you're about to be subjected to serious amounts of Rockribbed Refusal to Accept No for An Answer. There will be tasks to be accomplished and we are looking for volunteers.

We tried 140 years of "there's nothing to be done." We keep doing what we've been doing we're going to get more of what we already have.

In the words of General Grant: "I'm tired of hearing about what Robert Lee is going to do you -- get busy and start thinking about what you're going to do to him."

I'm sure General Lee had something similar to say, but I'm afraid I'm not as well acquainted with his quotes.

If we want to have the flags preserved, we can get the flags preserved. The only question is how badly we want it, whether we are willing to work to do it -- find allies, discover what has already been done (and what ideas from other states could be transplanted here), find the place to plant the fulcrum, and start applying the elbow grease. I'm sure fundraising will be part of this at some point, but we've already got self-identified masters in that area who can help and give us pointers.

"There's nothing to be done, New York State is an immense, immovable entity".

Eyewash.

And I got the standing to say that -- ten years ago I found out my brother had Marfan Syndrome (he got diagnosed at age 25), which is a genetic disorder of the connective tissue. He was just finishing putting himself through college, had massvie debts and didn't know if he'd ever be able to be employed. It was clear he was going to have to have the top of his heart cut off sometime in the future, and have it replaced with man-made fibers, an operation that would put him out of work for a year. I set out to change the state laws of New York so that he could buy health insurance -- it took five years and the help of lots and lots of help from a bunch of other people, but we managed it. Since 1992 it has been illegal in the State of New York to refuse to sell someone health insurance for any reason related to their health -- if an insurance company is selling policies to the public in our state, they have to take all who want to buy, well or sick, and they can't raise the price for the sick people.

And trust me, it was a fight to the death, with the insurance lobby pumping millions in lobbying talent in by the end.

We can do it -- we can save these flags -- we just have to find the right people and figure out how to do it.

And I'll tell you right now that I can give advice, ideas and be a sounding board -- but there are a number of other issues that I'm working on already. I can help in some areas, but I can't be the point person on this one.

Who is willing to help get this done?

1. First of all, we need to talk to people in other states who are allowing private individuals to contribute funds for flag preservation and see how they have it structured, and if anyone remembers when it was set up, see if we can talk to the folks who set it up to see how they did it. Sounds like Alabama and Michigan are two states we need to talk to. What about the rest of the country -- does anyone else know the route in your state if you want to privately raise funds for flag preservation? Is there an "adopt a flag" program in your state?

2. We need to identify who the "stakeholders" are in the present system with the general fund to preserve all the flags. Who is invested in keeping the system run this way?

3. We aren't even clear about who owns the flags, how many they are, or which regiments they are. That is some basic homework that someone knows, or several someones know -- if we're going to be credible, we need to know that as well.

4. We also need to acknowledge, thank, talk to and be respectful of the people who have already done work on this issue. The people who even got this issue off the dime and got the state to hire a conservator, etc. Who are those folks? They are referenced on the websites that I posted earlier. Does anyone know any of them, personally?

5. Rather than thinking of your government as "Government" this faceless, immovable obilisk of granite, we all need to start thinking of government as "my guy/woman in Albany". If you live outside of New York, you can do this too. Go to the League of Women Voter's website go to "Voter Information" and type in your zip code. www.lwv.org

Print that page out. These are the people you are paying to represent you in state government. We're coming up on April 15 -- take a minute to think about how much of your disposable income they get every year.

Tack the names, numbers and email addresses to the wall next to the phone where you can find it. These people need to be educated about flags and preservation. You are the nominee to educate your local reps (that's two, count them, two people whose job is to do your bidding in Albany -- when was the last time you asked them to do anything? And you've been paying taxes how long?). The local office is in your neighborhood, and there are staff there -- ask them who the staffer in Albany is who would be tracking funds for flag preservation. Get that person's name and write it on your list. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. We're not ready to start squeeeking yet, but that day is coming. Got to do some homework first.

6. We have to identify who are our allies, people who would be willing to make a phone call or write an email or letter about flags preservation, and who are the people who will be in opposition.

7. Legistlators respond to two things: money and votes.

Money:
So most of the people reading this post aren't earning 3 million a year. Doesn't mean we can't find people who do who care about Civil War stuff. Doesn't mean we cant raise that kind of money. But one of the dirty little secrets of politics is that of the two important issues, money is number 2.

Votes is number one.

Which brings us to the next point. Before you can call your assemblyperson or state senator you need to be a registered voter. Why? Because they keep a copy of the voters roster in the office, and cross check your requests against the voting rolls. They want to keep voters, especially regular voters, happy. If you aren't registered to vote, TONIGHT get out the phone book and in the county or local government listing look up "Board of Elections" or "League of Women Voters." Write down the number, and call them on Monday to mail you a registration packet. It's simple, painless and free. Do it.

If you are already registered to vote, you need to work on your credibility, to get your profile high in their awareness. One of the first things to do is resolve to vote in every election from here to the grave. School board, dog catcher, sanitation bond issues, beat it down to the polls. Because not only is your registration on record with your elected officials, so is whether you turn up and vote on a regular basis.

If you've not registered or not voted very often, make it your business from here on in so as to build up your rep with your representatives.

I think we have valuable resources within our community of the reenacting world that can help us -- we certainly have people reading this who live in all the states in the Civil War. We have people who have already raised funds and gotten flags preserved. We have people who know what their different states have done to structure a way for private funds to pay for flag preservation. There are already people working on this issues, we don't ahve to start from scratch. This is a lot, people, we are at a good starting place.

Now it's time to start doing some work.

Here's what you can do:

1. If you're not registered, get the phone number for the board of elections or the League of Women Voters in your county. Call them Monday and ask for a registration form. Fill it out and mail it back.

2. Vote in elections -- know when they are, know where your polling place is and what hours the polls are open. In NYS they are open from some early hour 5?6? AM to 9 PM. I always vote at the end of the day, so I know it's 9 PM.

3. Who here knows whether they can contribute money to flags preservation in their state? Glenn Milner told us about Alabama, Dane Utter told us about New York, Mr. Adair told us about Michigan.

We need to know about these states. Post here which one you're taking on, you don't have to live there to find out how they fund preservation of Civl War flags. Do a google search, call the state archives or museum, and let's figure out how the rest of the country does it:

Arkansas
Louisiana
Minnesota
California
Washington
Oregon
West (By God) Virginia
Virginia
Ohio
Minnesota
Iowa
Kansas
Missouri
Wisconsin
Indiana
Illinois
Kentucky
Mississippi
Georgia
Florida
South Carolina
North Carolina
Maryland
Delaware
New Jersey
Connecticut
Massachusetts
Rhode Island
Vermont
New Hampshire
Maine
Pennsylvannia
Tennessee

Is there anyone I'm leaving out? Are there Civil War flags in states that weren't states when the war was fought?

4. We need to know who owns the New York State flags. Who will take this on and report back here?

5. We need to know if the Confederate flags that were held in New York have been returned or not. Who can report back on this?

6. Who knows people who spearheaded the fight for the current system in New York State? Are they still around? Who can find out their names and post them here -- some of us might know them, personally.

7. Who were the legislators who stepped up to the plate to get the current regulations in place? Are they still in office? It's an election year, folks. We certainly want to keep our friends in office if they want to stay there, and we want to meet with them and tell them that's why we're voting for them.

8. Which organizations are likely to have part-time lobbying talent in Albany who will know the inside stuff on who we need to get to? For those of you who haven't experienced state government before, the working model is junior high school. There are people who offended other people 20 years ago when they first got in office, who hate each other now and wouldn't vote for the other's bills if their lives depended on it -- and other people who will always vote for the other's bill, because he and the other legislator are best buds. Lobbyists have the front row bleacher seats for all of this -- they keep the score talleys and can give invaluable advice about how to avoid a misstep that could cost us.


This doesn't all have to be done by one person -- but working together you can preserve these flags.

"A few thoughtful committed people can change the world -- in fact, that's the only way it's ever done." -- Margaret Mead

Karin Timour
"The Stories in the Socks" Women in the Civil war Conference, Richmond, Virginia, June 2004
Period Knitting -- Socks, Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Deteriorating Flags and Various Items

http://www.flaghouse.org/