The Damage A .58 Caliber Musket Can Bring

[Cumpston1862]

Gents-

The attached pictures say it all. You are seeing a cow leg before and after being hit by a .58 caliber minie ball. The bullet was fired from a repro Armi-Sport model 1861 Springfield. Full military load with the range being about 75 yards. The bone has been broken and shattered. The misery of such a wound is hard to fathom.

[GrumpyDave]

Re: The Damage A .58 Caliber Musket Can Bring

Your results are flawed by the lack of soft tissue surrounding the bone. Your results would be similar(this little experiment has been done ad nauseum), But not the same. Also, there is a reason why more scientists and experiments to reciplate humans use Sus domesticusbones, they are more closely associated with human bones and tissue structure. By adding soft tissue, you cause the lead ball to begin flattening sooner, and with a lighter bone, more shatter could occur. And, depending on the distance and random flattening of the ball, the bone may also actually be cleanly clipped into two pieces.

Still, nasty stuff. BTW, (an NSSA person should jump in), at 75 yards, that mini ball is still only picking up speed.

[GenuineInformation]

Re: The Damage A .58 Caliber Musket Can Bring

Dave, is there a property of the minie ball that allows it to continue to build velocity after exiting the muzzle?

[maillemaker]

Re: The Damage A .58 Caliber Musket Can Bring

Dave, is there a property of the minie ball that allows it to continue to build velocity after exiting the muzzle?

The powder that gets packed into the hollow base of the expanding ball burns and exits like a rocket motor as it flies downrange. :)

Steve

[pipthelimey]

Re: The Damage A .58 Caliber Musket Can Bring

The ball continues to accelerate as long as it remains in the barrel, but it is at its fastest the moment it leaves the barrel.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: The Damage A .58 Caliber Musket Can Bring

Hallo!

As shared, what is missing in tis experiment is the effect of structural support provided by muscle and tendon, but the largest is the destructive effect of hydrostatic shock as the bullet pushes tissue, water, and bone fragments ahead of it. This is why exit wounds are larger than entry wounds. Without tissue water/blood or bone, there is less damage.

A gruesome side note, to test damage, the Army, IIRC went to the Chicago stockyards in 1904 and shot live animals- rather than shooting into already butchered meat. A similar parallel was the military using live dogs and goats to train medics during the Vietnam War, (which I believe, but do not know was ended a few years ago..)
But yes, still a bone crushing and fragmenting force that Period medical science could not deal with resulting in the NUG procedure for shattered limbs was amputation.

Does a bullet accelerate after leaving the barrel. Let's see how much high school or college physics I still have. :)

Short answer is no.

Force is equal mass times acceleration (F=MA) So, acceleration equals force divided by mass. (A=F/M)

Since the mass of a bullet is constant, decreasing the force decreases the acceleration. In order to accelerate there must be increasing force.

The amount of force is tricky as well, as I know of no studies, or method available to measure velocity or acceleration INSIDE of a barrel. Black Powder burns slowly, creating a pressure curve that is flatter and longer than that created by smokeless powder which "kicks" a bullet down the bore rather than pushes. We assume that a charge of powder continues to accelerate the bullet ALL the way down the barrel (which is partially born out by the fact that longer barrels achieve higher velocities than shorter ones as the powder has a longer time to act upon the bullet.

The key here is that the F or force in the equation ends once the rear or base of the bullet leaves the muzzle. It is that teeny weeny if not microscopic maybe world of measurement where the difference between gravity's drag on the bullet due to friction with the bore suddenly disappears when the bullet fully leaves the muzzle AS the gases (which may or may not be still accelerating past the bullet given it a very slight drag forward increase velocity/acceleration BEFORE the steep "cone" shape of the gases expand into the environment/atmosphere thus decreasing the push (force) on the bullet. (That turbulence is another discussion.)

But according to the laws of physics (on this planet...) inertia plus sudden reduction of friction cannot increase the bullet velocity. Since the amount of force on the bullet decreases as the bullet pushes into air and water (humidity). and may get pushed sideways by wind... slows down the further from the muzzle it travels.

One might think exiting gases might continue to "push" on the bullet for a very short distance, but once the rear of the bullet leaves the muzzle and gases move out there is less force in the gases and things "slow" down"

(I missed the ballistic question on a high school physics test because I believed that the force put on a bullet horizontally would due to its speed stay "airborne" longer and strike the ground later than a bullet dropped from the muzzle. Which seems to make sense but is not true... both hit the ground at the same time due to gravity...)

This is what the modern military thinks:

"FIELD MANUAL
NO. 6-40
MARINE CORPS
WARFIGHTING PUBLICATION
NO. 3-1.6.19

HEADQUARTERS
DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY
U.S. MARINE CORPS
Washington, DC, 23 April 1996

FM 6-40
Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures for
FIELD ARTILLERY MANUAL CANNON GUNNERY


3-2. Transitional Ballistics

Sometimes referred to as intermediate ballistics, this is the study of the transition from interior to exterior ballistics. Transitional ballistics is a complex science that involves a number of variables that are not fully understood; therefore, it is not an exact science. What is understood is that when the projectile leaves the muzzle, it receives a slight increase in MV from the escaping gasses."

Which, as the laws of physics shows, is not true. What it would take is the ability to measure V and A inside of the bore, and then immediately as it leaves the bore. in that micro measurement realm of the dividing line between interior ballistics and exterior ballistics. I do not believe we have the measuring devices. Civil War soldiers and Ordnance folks did not.

Others mileage, but not physics, will vary...

Curt
Not a rocket surgeon Mess

;) :)

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: The Damage A .58 Caliber Musket Can Bring

Curt,

In that micro-moment as the bullet leaves the bore, the friction of the bullet against the barrel walls has ceased, yet the gases have not yet been fully dispersed and are still acting upon the mine ball. While there is no application of a new propelling force (forward), would the fact that the bullet has escape DEcelarating force of friction against barrel result in a net increase in force upon the bullet?
...therefore this would be a net additional force applied to the bullet making it travel faster.

Yes?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: The Damage A .58 Caliber Musket Can Bring

Hallo!

What would Sheldon on "Big Bang Theory" say?

:) :)

Not being a rocket surgeon.. as I understand the theoretical argument (and lads argue that point all of the time) there is possibly some ultra miniscule and immeasurably small moment and distance from the muzzle crown line...

-conceivably where the loss of friction due to gravity in the bore) stops and the amount of force gives the bullet a boost as there is less resistance. But, the physics formula would not support that as the bullet immediately loses Force (the F in the equation) AND gravity instantly pulls the bullet downwards slowing it down (the pull of gravity is the same inside and out, just that the bullet loses the barrel holding it up).

The bullet reaches a maximize acceleration AND a maximum velocity somewhere in the barrel, but definitely before the instant in time where the rear of the bullet no longer touches the bore and the Force declines. That would also change inside of a hot bore as the air is thinner than the colder air outside of the barrel creating less air resistance (Drag) inside than outside. And a similar effect by either cross wind or wind blowing into the bullet. Or the shape and ballistic coefficient of the bullet in its spin and or tumble in flight along its trajectory.

Where lads seem to argue most, is whether that happens in an instantaneously small nano second fraction, or... an inch beyond the muzzle, a foot, ten feet, etc., etc. But the laws of physics on a planet with gravity and atmosphere, as well as Newton's Laws do not support it.

Again... not a rocket surgeon or physics professor... or Marine.

Oh, Minies are also highly prone to over charges, which is one of the reasons, in addition to accuracy and pine penetration at distances... the military settled on the .58 charge they did for the .58 "Springfield." If the powder charge is too high, the Minie becomes slower and erratic because the shirts are still flaring as the ball leaves the muzzle and extend beyond the diameter of the ball itself messing up its 'ballistic coefficient" and stability.

Curt

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: The Damage A .58 Caliber Musket Can Bring

Hallo!

What would Sheldon on "Big Bang Theory" say?

:) :)

I get that a lot! ;-)

...But, the physics formula would not support that as the bullet immediately loses Force (the F in the equation) AND gravity instantly pulls the bullet downwards slowing it down (the pull of gravity is the same inside and out, just that the bullet loses the barrel holding it up).

The bullet has a variety of forces acting upon it at all times. So, there are numerous “F=MA”’s going on. The force of gravity pulls the bullet downward and the barrel holds it up. The bullet pushes forward through the air and the air pushes the bullet back. That micro-moment that the bullet has exited the muzzle, but the gases of the exploding powder have not been dispersed, the force of friction of the bullet against the barrel wall has been removed, while the force of the expanding gases remains.

The net force propelling the bullet forward in that fleeting instant has increased because of the removal of one of the forces resisting that forward movement.
..but, then again, I'm no rocket surgeon either!
...nor have I ever played one on TV!!
:)

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: The Damage A .58 Caliber Musket Can Bring

Hallo!

The whole thing is.. "counter intuitive." just like me missing the physics' test question. Another one easy to miss is Galileo's real or intellectual dropping two balls of equal mass from the Tower of Pisa to prove that their acceleration was identical and that Aristotle's view that objects fall at speeds relative to their mass. The "intuitive" part being larger and different shaped objects have different air resistance.

:) :)

I see it this way...

There is a given amount of force acting on the bullet the moment before it leaves the barrel, dependent upon powder charge characteristics, diameter of the ball, lube, and hardness of the lead (obduration where the rear of a softer lead projectile starts t move first before the front does). According to the formula or law... the amount of Force can only produce say X amount of acceleration in a proportional relationship with mass. Since the mass of the bullet remains constant, as the gases move in directions away from the same confined place on the base of the bullet as the bullet leaves the barrel, there is less Force, so Acceleration declines at a greater Rate than any possible uptick from the elimination of friction for that mili or nano second.

Someone needs to invent a measuring device that measures velocity/acceleration inside of a bore, and then have chronographs may be Doppler to detect and measure that instant of time and distance at the very muzzle.

Now, if it were the vacuum of Space, and with no gravity fields around, the force generated would give the bullet a fixed acceleration and constant velocity... "forever" unless acted upon by an outside force.

:) :)

Take that Superintendent Burton! Or Claude Etienne Minie!! Or Wilkinson. Or Prichett. :)

What no physics professors among the AC membership?

:)

Curt
Just Load in Nine Times or Four Times Mess

[the Tennessee Confederate]

Re: The Damage A .58 Caliber Musket Can Bring

I have wanting to post a thread but couldn't figure out how since I'm new to the AC but this what i have been thinking. Look at how a modern reenacter (usually mainstreamers) take a hit. The usual is falling then crawling,limping, or stumbling off the field behind the lines. But if that cow leg was your leg or arm could you really take the pain. I think there would few who could , if it was me with that wound i would probably be screaming my head off, grinding my teeth or maybe pass out if the pain was that bad. Just my thoughts.- Hunter Greene