Leaving So Soon?

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

I think the term immersion has become a bit watered down to mean any event that is full of progressive types. Immersion should mean, in my opinion and others I have spoke with, that the event is closed to the public, few if any modern intrusions and participants do all they can to stay in the moment with first person. I truly believe that is what the original definition was and should come back to. The hardest part is the last bit. I could write a paper on that section. It's hard when men get tired as first person is the first to go but with some pre-event communication, keeping busy at the event and some reminders at the ever by leadership this can be improved. I am no expert at it and by far not an exception to the problem at times. I just have seen that formula work to improve the experience of everyone.

[Tom Craig]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

Jeremy makes some very good points, as does Joe. Immersion as a term like progressive has been vastly watered down to the point that it doesn't carry much meaning anymore, other than you have to have a decent kit. In my mind immersion has always been reserved for the top tier of events and in fact is pretty rare given the nature of events, particularly a lack of sustained first person.

It does very much seem as Joe points out that many participants have no real interest in soldiering or really experiencing life in the 1860's. So they come, they do some reenacting Saturday AM, get tired by the afternoon, visit with friends and are ready to pull the plug by the time they lay down at night.

I get the points from event organizers that after a year plus of organizing, and a hellaciously busy weekend running the event that it can be hard to go the distance and all, but in my mind that's a little like an Olympic athlete training for four years, traveling to the venue and then only doing half of their run/routine/race. I understand wanting to visit with pards and rarely seen friends, I like that too, but as these good events have gotten more rare it doesn't make sense for us to limit the already short time we have by spending it not reenacting.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[GenuineInformation]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

I never went to Bermuda Hundred expecting it to be a full-on "immersion" event. I knew from the get-go it was going to be an intensive living history that involved more than giving a blanket talk at a city park. I'm not sure what brings on so much disappointment? Organize a better event, if you dare.

I guess nobody posting in this thread attended Marmaduke's 2 last year in the Missouri boot heel area. If you had, you wouldn't be lamenting the death of Immersion Events. From step off at noon on Friday to the event's end around noon on Sunday, I was completely immersed in marching, fetching water from the creek, operating as a column on foot in enemy country with close mounted recon and support, constructing breastworks, posting and rotating pickets, etc, etc. In short, soldiering.

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

I didn't say those events were dead. I was at Marmadukes 1&2 and both are at the top of my list. We were soldiers living the life at both of those AND there was first person all around me. Those events and others are the model for what I crave along with so many others. I think there is merit for these discussions to improve ourselves for ourselves.

[Coatsy]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

Jeremy is correct. There is always room for improvement. Take the good and bad from events to better yourself, your messmates, and those around you.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

I guess nobody posting in this thread attended Marmaduke's 2 last year in the Missouri boot heel area. If you had, you wouldn't be lamenting the death of Immersion Events. From step off at noon on Friday to the event's end around noon on Sunday, I was completely immersed in marching, fetching water from the creek, operating as a column on foot in enemy country with close mounted recon and support, constructing breastworks, posting and rotating pickets, etc, etc. In short, soldiering.

I attended Marmaduke 2 (and 1) as a civilian, and when I was with the civilians, it was definitely what I'd call immersion. However, when I hired on as a cook at the Union fort, it seemed a typical whatever-you-call-it event where soldiers sit around and talk about modern stuff whenever they're not actively busy doing something. I found a few people who would talk with me, but eventually had to go off and sleep away from camp Saturday night to get away from the constant background sound of modern talk. I don't know if that's what people are calling immersion or not, but it's not how I'd define it, because I've been around much better at other events, and in fact was around much better at the same event.

The best military immersion event I've been to was Backwaters. It equalled any civilian event I've been to. But again, I don't know if I was just lucky to be in the right time and place.. And of course I've attended lots of civilian events and civilian parts of events, like the Independence Village events, where it really is possible to go a whole weekend and not hear more than a sentence or two of modern talk, and that's actually the normal expectation. But I think some of it depends on being lucky enough to be in the right time and the right place throughout the event--which is hard to predict, especially for military people who are assigned where they must be and given orders to stay there, while civilians like in real life can walk away and find more compatible folks. There are lots of hobbies going on at once, and I think people sometimes aren't even aware of the little hobbies going on by themselves in the corners of bigger events. And it also depends on what one's expectations are. If I'm expecting immersion to be the way it's been at the last half dozen events I attended and my experience isn't like that, I'll be disappointed, whereas if someone else attends an event that seems breathtakingly more accurate than the last half dozen events they've attended, they'll be thrilled.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

What Hank says is true. I know at Marmadukes 2 on Saturday night the modern talk around the fires did come out. I remember as I was going to different posts and heard it as I walked around and when I tried to sleep. Again I think it comes back to once everyone is worn out and they have free time. We had driven back an attack on our Fort and everyone was in high spirits and the modern jokes started. As I said in my first post I am guilty as well. It crossed my mind as one of the officers to try and get things back on track but I didn't. Instead I remember laughing and participating. The rest of the event I thought was pretty darn good, at least around me. The only other modern talk I remember was sitting with the cpl of the guard and him and I started to whisper about our modern lives. There was no way anyone else could have heard us and many others were sleeping. Before that event I sent out emails to keep the first person going and asked that NCO's help guide men back on track. I might be crazy but I think that helps some. At the very least at the start of the event.

Hank continues what I was talking about with my first post. There are different definitions of what immersion might mean and what is expected when that term is used. Some it means without stopping in every way its 186X while others it might mean a few hours away form that is ok or even doing/eating what they did but not talking like they did. What that should mean to the CPH community or what the majority wants it to mean is what I think is worthy of a discussion.

For me, I want it to be little to no modern talking, no public and few if any modern intrusions around me. I find myself wanting this more and more which means I need to improve as well.

To be clear there is a place for other types of events and I enjoy them as well (ie. living histories for the public and participant learning, adjuncts for the numbers and bigger "moments" and the occasional catch up with friends local event).

[Steven Dacus]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

As a relatively newcomer to this hobby and the AC mindset, I have learned and relearned at each event I go to that this is still a hobby that participants want to have "fun" at, and we all draw the line in the sand as far as what is "immersion enough" (thus the whole reason for the AC forum vs the others). The one thing I can say I've learned is that I dare not call myself an authentic or campaigner. The more I strive to be such, the more I realize how much of a farb I really am. Because of everyone's own definition of what they want, we will always have those who carry on with inappropriate conversation and we will also have those who try to enforce the standards but have no social skills to do so and is therefore called "nazi'ish" names.

I have caught myself trying to enforce my own set of standards rather than that of the event's and turning people away from the hobby that they were just "feeling out". Even though we say to concentrate on authenticity rather than numbers, it is hard to argue so when a large unit in my area is 5 members. We choose certain events for different reasons and I agree it is up to the organizers to outline all expectations, but then it is our responsibility to follow and participate in those expectations.

But to return to the original point to this thread, I am personally on the side of staying at the event until I get kicked out late Sunday. Since I average 30 hours of driving for each main event we go to, I plan on getting everything out of it. We have nothing in the region that even compares to the smallest event back east. We are lucky to get 10 soldiers at a "reenactment".

Just my 2

[Ambrose Bierce]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

I will preface this entry by saying I did not attend Marmaduke's and having been out of the hobby for a while, my perspective may be a bit dated.

To Joe's point, I am curious as to what "hobby leadership" is and once they are identified, how they have failed? Event organizers put a ton of work into events and the best ones are those where the logistics and other contingencies are planned for in such a way as to be largely transparent to the participant.

Having organized and managed immersion and living history events in the past, the ones I found most enjoyable were ones where the numbers of participants were kept small (company size for each side) and the land utilized was as free of modern intrusions as possible. Doing these events every other year also helped to keep them fresh and gave people something to look forward to, much like is done with Pickett's
Mill.

I agree that expectations can be managed by being up front about impressions and if it is meant to be a first person event, so state and encourage all to attempt to maintain that for the weekend. I admit it can be difficult, particularly for the uninitiated who may find it dorky (but then again, look at how you are spending the weekend in the first place!), but it need not be complicated and you don't have to change your name to a biblical character and speak fondly of the farm to make it effective.

Paradoxically, the more people involved, and the more items that are offered, the more distractions can be introduced. If we are here on this site to attempt to portray people in this period as authentically as possible, then the discussions over vendors and who made what should be checked at the door and the focus should turn to the event, which sounds like it does happen, but often not for the duration of the event.

Maybe it is us, the participants, who have changed? Do we need to take a collective look at how we approach this hobby and the events that are EBUFU and are not what we expect of them? What are the expectations, then? With Pickett's Mill around the corner and US numbers low at the moment, there are all kinds of factors as to why this might be.

The tyranny of distance, location, and the feeling that this type of event might be too "hardcore" for many could be contributing factors. For me, it is an eight hour dive, not as far as for some, but still a day on either side do the event. I am still looking forward to it. Of course, people have real lives, families, and quite frankly, staying until noon Sunday is hard for most since endurance for the long events wears out both physically and scenario wise unless the event is scripted in such a way as to maintain people's interest. Soldier life and other dull pastimes are what make up most of modern service, too, so you really are being authentic if you are not on post during a picket post or conducting drill during a rare barracks event.

The organizers make a commitment to the participants to provide the best experience they can. I think the participants should return in kind by being as dedicated to the event as possible for the time they can be there. No one forces another to attend, and certainly no one can force someone to stay. It is about choices and what people want to get out of attending an event. None of these events are perfect, but all have something to offer, so each person in attendance can gain a benefit.

For me, I don't enjoy large scale battle reenactments where there are authentic adjuncts, but that doesn't mean a large scale event isn't worthwhile. Having small events does not allow for the sheer numbers of combatants that would have been on the field. To each their own. That is just my perspective, however.