Leaving So Soon?

[Tom Craig]

Like many of you on here, I was at Bermuda 100, and had a great time. I was having enough fun that time went by quickly...so much so that the event was over before I knew it! My pard and I were changed, and ready to leave the parking lot by 9AM Sunday morning, which left us feeling a bit disappointed.

This situation is not unique to B100 by any means. None of the CHP/EBUFU events that I have attended have gone beyond noon, and many have ended by 10 AM Sunday. Generally folks drive time is given as a reason to cut things short, but to me that doesn't exactly make sense.

In the case of B100 I knew when I committed to the event just how far away it was from my house, and what I would have to do in terms of time off, and travel time to get there and back. Richmond is roughly 7.5 hours from my house (without DC traffic). The event was slated to end by noon, so I took Friday off from work, but knew I could get home for work Monday. If the event had been a few hours further from home, or had ended later then maybe I would have either not gone, or taken Monday off from work.

My point is that folks who travel really long distance to these gigs know how far it is, and know if they can make the commitment of time that it takes to get there. Having put in the time, it seems to me that we ought to have events that carry on till at least noon time. People put a year or years of thought into events, prepare for them, buy or make gear for them, and spend a lot of money and effort to get to them, and then they last about 36 hours. That doesn't make sense to me.

By cutting events short, we are short changing ourselves, and squandering the resources that we have collected together in one spot. Most of us can't do week long events, or event that last longer than a weekend, but we can certainly get more event out of the weekends we have.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[Strawfoot]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

Hey Tom is was great to meet up, you fit in well with our mess. I hear you, but personally this worked out well for me in that I had planned to tour battlefields after the event. I ended up at five of them, and just hit Bull Run at dusk which would've meant six. I was prepared to stay as long as needed on Sunday, having made arrangements to travel back to Texas Monday morning. So either way was fine with me. Any other circumstance, yeah, I may have been a little put off.

[GenuineInformation]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

On the other side of the same coin, if attending Bermuda Hundred meant I would have to take two days off from work, I could not have gone at all. There are always going to be trade offs. For older reenactors with a greater ability to take time off, longer events may be preferable. For younger reenactors and those who cannot take as much time off, the shorter format works better. Trade offs all around.

The question of which to choose--shorter format, or longer format--is a relevant one, though. Which represents the best bet for growing and enriching the hobby? Said another way, would you rather have an event where 100 reenactors are present for 55 hours, or an event where 400 reenactors are present for 40 hours? This isn't a rhetorical question, and I don't have an answer close at hand--but it is definitely something worth thinking about.

I, personally, at this point in my life, prefer the shorter format for events--only because that means I get to participate in the hobby. I wish that I could attend the longer format (even week-long) events, but work for does not exist such that I can do that. I am glad to know pards who attend those longer format events, however, because I am able to learn from their experiences.

And honestly, if I am thinking about the drive home and whether I will be able to make it home in time to get meaningful rest before work Monday, that time at an event is wasted for me.

Joseph Knight

[Chip42]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

I too found it interesting that we shut things down as early as we did at BH, but as others have stated, I got in some battlefield time and I still got home even sooner than I had planned for on Sunday.

If I could offer my opinion, I'd like to see longer events--possibly lasting from Thursday afternoon to Noon Sunday. It always seems to me that by the time we're tuned up, it's time to go home. A day of semi-immersive "campaign prep" (drill, & general in field prep to shake off the rust) followed by a solid 2.5 days in the field would be great. I understand work/family issues with vacation time as I deal with both, but I think we would gain more from a longer event. Those with longer distances to travel might have more reason to justify the trip knowing they'll be in the field longer than 36 hours.

[Coatsy]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

As one who arrived early on Friday at Bermuda Hundred, I had no issue with the cut off time Sunday. The event organizer and command staff both approved, and I got everything that I wanted and then some out of the event. Those who had long distances could leave earlier on Sunday, those who had short rides were asked to stay to help with public interpretation. Since I was able to get into it earlier on Friday, I know I did not cut short my time. I was also facing an 8 hour drive home. I know others in my company that had longer drives.

In the grand scope of events, as an event organizer I have to gauge start and finish times. If I start it too early, I won't have many participants. If I run it later than let's say Noon on Sunday, people will let me know they cannot attend, or they have to leave early. This is coming from experience, and I speaking within the "campaigner" framework since those are the events that I assist or run, and I want to keep it "AC" topical.

To piggy back on Joe Knight's comments, pretty much everyone I reenact with has a family, a job, both, and limited time off. If you want to maximize participation, know your pool of participants. Plain and simple.

Also, with Sam's comments, I have thoroughly enjoyed longer events such as Thursday evening through Sunday afternoon at Ossabaw Island, 4 1/2 days at Winter 63, Guarding Savannah, and the week long Piney Woods. I've actually helped host a 4 1/2 day event at Ft. McAllister (Guarding Savannah). Honestly, the event was ONE day too long. We didn't maximize participation because folks just could not swing the time. So we had latecomers and people that had to leave early because of real life.

Keeping in this vein, I am still very enthusiastic about longer events. Something like: Arrive Thursday and end Sunday afternoon is a good "middle ground. I know I won't be able to get the numbers like at Bermuda Hundred, but 3 companies worth of men is a good goal for a longer event. Using Pickett's Mill as an example, originally we had "Early Bird Friday" planned for those who wanted a little more. Sadly, after much discussion, the park staff and reenactor staff had to cut it to Friday evening to Sunday ending around 11 am. Sometimes your venue, and venue staff cannot make the schedule work.

Finally, if folks don't like the "36 hour" event model that is the "norm" right now, create and event that YOU WANT. Do not depend on someone else to put your vision into the field. Extend the time in the field. Folks like the Columbia Rifles/Potomac Legion, The Texas Ground Hornets, Terre Lawson/Rob Murray, and my home unit have done this. These evnets have had quite good reviews. It is a LOT of work, time, personal funds, headache, and blood pressure control. Shoot, I wanted to murder my fellow event staffer Eric Tipton in the middle of Bummers, and that was only a 36 ish hour event. :D It isn't easy, but it can be done. Get out and make it work.

Now, I'm going to torch my soap-box in honor of The Sherm.

[Tom Craig]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

Herb,

I have put on my own events at Unison, VA, and helped my wife run events at Hopewell and Welbourne Plantation (both civilian). When I run events, I plan for them to end Sunday at or around noon, and have never found that to be a deal breaker. Of course those events are small in nature, and I haven't been concerned with grabbing any kind of serious numbers, but I've also never had anyone tell me that they'd wish the event ended earlier on Sunday.

I would like to have the time off to get to an event that lasted from Thursday through Sunday, but being a teacher, the only time I can really swing that is during the summer, and most of the events don't happen in the middle of summer. I would really be satisfied with events going till noon. The streamers have events all the time where they go till 1 or 2 o'clock, and then have gargantuan camps to break down. We march off the field and are gone. Why can they do it, and we can't?

You talk about getting to the event early, which I understand. I took Friday off and left at 5 AM to be on site early, but the reality seems that these events don't REALLY kick off until Saturday AM, despite what the pre-event info says. So you can get on site early, get set up, and do lots of visiting, but it still doesn't net you any more active reenacting when most of the rest of the participants are hanging out in the parking lot.

To Joe,
I can appreciate the notion of being able to go, or not, based on having to take time off. I'd be at a lot of events in TN if I could take more time off. That said, when I was younger and had less time off, I made the sacrifice of late night driving on Friday, often getting to events at 11 or midnight, and then turned around and got to work on Monday AM, tired but functional. Now that I have kids it is a lot harder to get out, and weekends are less free, so when I make it to an event, I want to get the most out of it. That, and traveling at least 5 hours for every event I do, it's a financial commitment. B100 for example ended up really being kinda like an extended day trip to Richmond for me.

As to the point about numbers and time. If we were talking about 100 for 55, or 400 for 40, then that's a serious consideration that merits thinking about. But what we had at B100, and just about every progressive event in the last 8 years seems like 400 guys for 36 hours, or 400 guys for 40 hours. That isn't such a great deal.


I don't intend to sound bitter at all, or to be a crank. I'd just like to see events go to at least noon on Sunday to make all the effort worth it. It seems like many guys reenact in order to be able to go home. If I wanted to be at home, I would stay there because it would be a lot cheaper and more comfortable, with better food!

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

- - - Updated - - -

Mike,

It was great to meet you too! You guys are a good bunch. Glad that the battlefield touring went well for you. Caleb and I went to Petersburg for a bit, and then got nailed in 95 traffic from Fredericksburg to central Jersey and it took 10.5 hours to get home.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[toptimlrd]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

For me, most good authentic events are quite the drive away (minimum 6 or 7 hours). B100 was an event I had been looking forward to for quite some time. To make that event I had to take off 3 days from work. Thursday to drive to ATL, Friday to carpool from ATL, got back to ATL and to my family's place around 8 PM Sunday with the slightly early finish, after cleaning some gear Monday morning, made the 7 hour drive home back to Florida. The event was exceptional and adding three or four hours would have probably resulted in just a little more time in camp Sunday morning. As it was I found it to be a very good event and I don't see how an additional couple of hours could have improved it that much more.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

I took Friday off and left at 5 AM to be on site early, but the reality seems that these events don't REALLY kick off until Saturday AM, despite what the pre-event info says. So you can get on site early, get set up, and do lots of visiting, but it still doesn't net you any more active reenacting when most of the rest of the participants are hanging out in the parking lot.

I agree. It amazes me how reenactors seem to dislike reenacting enough to avoid it as long as possible, then quit as soon as they can justify it. If an event doesn't have a firm start time Friday early evening that I know will be respected, I usually try to find, ahead of time, some others who want to set a start time, and just ignore the others who aren't. That's easier for civilians, but for military, one really needs the whole camp working together. Still, it sometimes is logical to have a smaller group agree to start together early, and can make all the difference in one's experience.

The Independence Village events have been held several times over Columbus Day weekend, so they run Friday evening (and actually do start then) through noon Monday. Very cool.

I've become extremely cynical after going as military to one c/p/h event a few years ago, which was supposed to start Friday evening, with a historic situation where the regiment had been on the march all day and were straggling into camp, so having later individual arrivals was perfectly period. I was informed after getting there that everyone had decided to start Saturday morning instead, for no apparent reason. Then on Saturday, whenever there was a break in the march, everyone I could find would also take a break from reenacting. Then in the evening, of course, it was time to take a break around the campfire again. My total actual reenacting time with others, after being on site Friday afternoon through Sunday mid morning, was a tiny fraction of that--and everyone else seemed perfectly happy with it. Not worth it for me, and not what was promised. From what I've read and seen, it's not unusual, though.

It seems much easier to find civilian events (or events within events) to start on time and continue longer--never had a problem there. Maybe it's smaller numbers, maybe it's a different mindset about the hobby. I don't know. So I'm relatively happy with the way events start and end that I'm attending now, but would not be if I were limited to being with the military.

I don't intend to sound bitter at all, or to be a crank. I'd just like to see events go to at least noon on Sunday to make all the effort worth it. It seems like many guys reenact in order to be able to go home. If I wanted to be at home, I would stay there because it would be a lot cheaper and more comfortable, with better food!

Same here.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

"If you want to prevent people from leaving an event, surround them with water..." -Tom Gingras at Ft. Sumter, TPEB 2011

:)

Hate to not take a position, but I am totally flexible. It is nice when we go all the way to noon on Sunday and it is nice when we can get drive time after an event. For my mileage, the fellowship driving to and coming back from the event is part of the fun. (But not the stinky, wet wool... ;) LOL)

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

Noon Sunday is a reasonable leave time for just about any event. Even if you're 8 hours away, you can still be home in time for a reasonable sleep before work*.

* though your musket and gear will spend a dirty day stinking up the joint until you can come back from work and clean them up!

I had Monday off for BH and used it, even though I got home in time for supper.

The draw to bug out early is powerful, especially at mainstream/big events. For EFUBU's, however, "reenactor math" can be a killer because the overall numbers are smaller. We should all try to stay as long as the event organizer asks.
...but the organizer has to state up-front what the expectations are.

[Coatsy]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

"...but the organizer has to state up-front what the expectations are. "

^ Bingo ^

All in all, this is a good discussion, and I think that it has a place here.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

Yep. Disappointment is generally about unmet expectations, not whether something is "good" or "bad".

Tell everyone what to expect up-front, then hold everyone to it.

[dusty27]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

As someone who has been on both sides of the registration/check in table, it might seem like the event isn't "long enough". While an event is one thing to participants, it is another thing to organizers and logistics personnel. You would probably add an additional one day to the set up and many more hours of clean up to an organizer's event over a participant at the same event. Those folks have jobs and families also and have worked hard to make the event memorable for everyone. Just another viewpoint.

[Spinster]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

As someone who has been on both sides of the registration/check in table, it might seem like the event isn't "long enough". While an event is one thing to participants, it is another thing to organizers and logistics personnel. You would probably add an additional one day to the set up and many more hours of clean up to an organizer's event over a participant at the same event. Those folks have jobs and families also and have worked hard to make the event memorable for everyone. Just another viewpoint.

Dusty makes an excellent point here.

I've spent the bulk of this 5 year cycle 'behind the table'-- first, as Herb mentions, along with Rob Murray and Gerry Barker for the week long In The Van and subsequently advocating for civilian-only areas within the BGA structure.

I'd still be at home crying and folks would still be hungry if Patrick McAllister had not come, loaded me up and trucked all the gear and supplies I'd put together in the last month after some of the supply job fell back on me late in the game for In the Van. That was not a task he signed up for--he was a regular participant who stepped up to the plate.

For the mainstream efforts of the BGA, my duties meant I was on site for each event a full week--plus site walks. From camp layouts to straw, hay, wood and water supply to portalet delivery, somebody has to wait on that---and ensure that its picked up and the land returned to its prior condition. The same thing is true for 'our' events--someone may have to build latrines and fill them in , position and pick up water supply, deal with trash removal, and fires. Having showed up with picnic goodies for one of Herb's Bummer's work days--I was impressed at the volume of site work done beforehand. A lot of these things are somewhat invisible to participants.

Event teams are often thinly staffed, even when they recruit deep for positions. And they can't leave until the job is done, even if everybody else waves goodbye and congratulates themselves on how early they got home.

If you arrive early, raise your hand and ask to help. I met people I'd have never met otherwise by taking the 9 pm til dawn shift at registration at the final Winter of 64. If nothing else, gather deadfall for your company.

When its time to go, take a little extra time before you hit the long road. Be sure your fire is really out---even if that means hauling some more water in. Gather up any trash in your area, and take it all the way out. Don't be the person who just had to have Red Bull and Gatorade under cover of darkness, and then also had to cover it with leaves cause he was too lazy to haul his garbage out--a good police team will find that, and has to clean it up. Help the event team clean up, sort out and load up the gear that was needed to serve everybody. Those ammo boxes, pork barrels, pioneer tools and cracker crates have to get back to the parking lot and into somebody's truck. I wonder some days if there are still ammo boxes in the woods at the Bushy Farm.....

And, just as organizers work hard to make a good event, and to meet the hobby's expectations----lets make sure we are equally invested as participants to meet the organizer's expectations, and fully participate in the scenarios outlined, in a period manner. Attitude standards are just as important as clothing standards.

[PogueMahone]

Re: Leaving So Soon?

In general, I have watched so-called immersion events fail at every opportunity for the last several years. They've turned into fashion shows and a few kewl moments. The participants themselves are the greatest failures because they can't stop talking about gear, the internet, sports or what time they need to leave. They want to socialize, not soldier.

Somewhere along the way, the hobby leadership has failed.