Trying to find fabric I've never heard of...

[brimorse]

Greetings All,

A group that we shoot with is trying to find a source for some fabric for uniforms. It is described as "Charlottesville gray". I would assume (probably incorrectly) that it is a wool jean cloth. It is gray with a bluish tint.

This group is the 2nd Virginia Cavalry.

I've looked at several sites- such as W&W, Mr. Tart, Mr. Childs, etc. But I'm sure the folks here know of other sources as well!

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Brian

Dear Mr. Morse,

You've been a member of the forum for more than a decade. About half of all your posts lack a full signature as required by the rules. This is one of them. Please sign all your posts with your full name. Here is a link to the forum rules : http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...tic-Campaigner - Silas Tackitt, one of the moderators

[Palmyra Possum]

Re: Trying to find fabric I've never heard of...

Okay, I’ll toss the chicken a kernel.

Charlottesville gray is essentially what you think of as military academy gray. Several military academies and school military programs in the late 1800s/early 1900s describe it as the color for their uniforms.

Bethel Military Academy – Another important development at this time was the adoption of the Bethel Military Academy uniform. After looking at several styles, Maj. Smith decided on a modified version of the uniform worn by cadets at Virginia Military Institute. Both the dress and fatigue uniforms were made of "Charlottesville gray" cloth with black trim; the dress uniform had a coatee, additional black braid trim, and bright brass buttons. The 1871-72 session saw an enrollment of 48 students, with 40 from Virginia.

Lee Military School – A flyer for the year 1897-98 states: “A modified military system has been introduced, with the belief that in no other way can be taught so effectively the essential habits of punctuality, self-control, physical training, and grace of carriage. . . . By this system uniformity of dress, esprit de corps, obedience, promptness, precision are attained.” A classic uniform – the kind that will continue into Greenbrier Military School – is described as being “of Charlottesville gray, of same cut as West Point uniform.” It is to be worn by cadets “at all times except upon social occasions. This suit is of excellent quality, and costs, including cap and four pairs of gloves, $15.00.”

Pittsburgh Academy (1906) - A uniform of the best Charlottesville gray, with a blue cap of the same style as worn by the West Point cadets, is worn by cadets at all exercises. The uniform is furnished by special contract at the low price of $20.00, and is made in the best manner, with excellent trimmings. In addition to this, one pair of white duck trousers for dress occasions is required.

University of Georgia (catalog of 1900-1901; Military Tactics class) – The uniform consists of a coat of standard Charlottesville gray cloth. Winter trousers of same material, with stripe one inch wide. Summer trousers of white duck, and blue cloth cap. The uniforms cost $16.00.

Maryland State College (catalog 1916-1917) – The uniform worn by all members of the battalion of cadets is the regulation West Point fatigue uniform, and is made of the best Charlottesville gray cloth.

I’ve also attached some pictures of uniforms from a couple of these institutes.

One commentary said it was a bluer gray than West Point gray. I should point out, however, that none of the sources I’ve cited are from the Civil War. Elsewhere on this site (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...-Jenkins/page2) it states, “…the grey-green/brown material from FHW… is a dead ringer for ‘Charlottesville Gray’.” Being that I am not familiar with “FHW,” I can’t help you beyond that.

[brimorse]

Re: Trying to find fabric I've never heard of...

Eric,

The chicken thanks you! Now I have a lead.

Thank you again!

Brian

[BobRoeder]

Re: Trying to find fabric I've never heard of...

Um..Just in case "FHW"= Family Heirloom Weavers

[rbruno]

Re: Trying to find fabric I've never heard of...

I would also imagine that this material is all wool and not jean cloth. Finding an all wool fabric that is of a correct weight, weave, and finish as the period all wool material is a challenge much less try to match a particular shade/color. Most of the fine all wool material that is close is coming from overseas.

[brimorse]

Re: Trying to find fabric I've never heard of...

I would also imagine that this material is all wool and not jean cloth. Finding an all wool fabric that is of a correct weight, weave, and finish as the period all wool material is a challenge much less try to match a particular shade/color. Most of the fine all wool material that is close is coming from overseas.

I thought I may have been off with the wool jean assumption, but you have to start somewhere!

Now to find the wool (if it exists).

Thank you all again for the help!

Brian Morse

P.s. Sorry about the rules violation, I will correct that from now on!

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Trying to find fabric I've never heard of...

Hallo!

If I am not mistaken...

You may (possibly?) be searching for a color of (fine) wool broadcloth that C & D Jarnagin advertised for their Confederate uniform line in the 1980's:

-"Richmond Gray"
-"Tuscaloosa Gray"
-"Cadet Gray"

and

-"Charlottesville Gray(?)

???

Curt

[brown]

Re: Trying to find fabric I've never heard of...

From the earlier reenactors I've known, I've always gotten the impression that reenactor Charlottesville gray was heavier than broadcloth and more grey/green/brown and less bluish than described above.

[Palmyra Possum]

Re: Trying to find fabric I've never heard of...

I came across an article about the history of the Charlottesville Mills; “Clothing a Nation” by Rick Britton. Here are some excerpts:

“Within a short time [Marchant and Jones] offered, when customers furnished three-fourths of a pound of washed and picked wool for each yard of cloth,” wrote John Hammond Moore, “to turn out white jeans for twenty-one cents a yard and colored jeans for twenty-four cents per yard. The success of this venture, essentially the production of slave clothing, encouraged Marchant to enter other textile fields….”

During the conflict Marchant’s firm – as of 1860 known as “the Charlottesville Manufacturing Company”– produced cloth and uniforms for the Confederate Army… In a directory of Southern wartime manufacturers, William A. Albaugh III wrote that the “Charlottesville Factory Co.” [sic] employed fifteen hands, and “spun cotton and wool into cloth suitable for uniforms.”

Echoing its Civil War output, the Charlottesville Woolen Mills began reconcentrating on the production of uniforms and military fabrics, albeit finer ones. In this manner it gained a national reputation for excellence… Eventually the mill was furnishing the cloth for, according to Poindexter, “ninety percent of the military schools in the United States, including West Point.” … This uniform cloth specialization is wonderfully illustrated by an 1888 ad for the company that appeared in The Albemarle Handbook, amidst others for the Albemarle Female Institute and the Monticello Wine Company. “Our specialties,” it read, “are Cadet Gray Meltons, Cadet Gray Doeskins, Cadet Gray Flannels, Dark Blue Flannels, Coatings and Overcoatings, Sky Blue Kerseys and Doeskins.”

The article also states that “in 1901 the firm became the official supplier of the ‘first-rate’ cloth used in the uniforms worn by the United Confederate Veterans.”

I contacted Mr. Britton and he stated it was his “understanding that ‘Charlottesville Gray’ and ‘Cadet Gray’ are one in the same color, a blue/gray combination.” However, this seems to be based on the post-war production of uniform cloth. This info corresponds with what I presented above, showing that after the war, Charlottesville gray was essentially “military academy gray.” However, that does not mean it was necessarily the color of the material being produced during the war. This does seem to indicate that the wartime cloth being produced was a jean cloth and that post-war Charlottesville gray cloth was a finer wool.

A lot of us seem to have heard it was a greenish-grayish-brownish color. Does anyone have any actual documentation as to the wartime color?

And sadly, I no longer have my Jarnagin’s catalogs from the 80s. I’m pretty sure I used to have a set of their wool samples. Don’t recall their Charlottesville Gray. Richmond, Tuscaloosa, Steel, Cadet, yes, but Charlottesville, no.

[rbruno]

Re: Trying to find fabric I've never heard of...

Eric,
Great information. Interesting look at what the mill produced. I think the first quote with saying that "essentially" it produced slave cloth, I think does hint that it produced other types of material and could have produced an all wool material as well. I will admit my sentence there has several "hints" and "could" in the statement. I was basing my earlier comment on the material being wool were two fold. One, the earlier post about "Charlottesville Grey being used in the military academies which is an all wool material and two,the company of troopers that enlisted in the 2nd VA from around the Charlottesville area were from the upper echelon of society for the most part. Thomas Munford who commanded the 2nd for most of the war and eventually rose to lead a brigade of cavalry was from Charlottesville and a graduate of UVA. I would think that many of the troopers would have the means to purchase a finer uniform then government issue. In the regimental series on the 2nd VA, one of the troopers mentions purchasing a fine material for uniforms and having the locals make it into uniforms. I will see if I can find the quote today when I get home. So, again I am thinking the would have had some of the nicer material around for their uniforms.

[Palmyra Possum]

Re: Trying to find fabric I've never heard of...

Could be it was a wool. I based the assumption that it was a jean on the quote indicating that they “spun cotton and wool into cloth suitable for uniforms.” Sounds like a jean cloth to me. Also, the post-war uniform cloth was described as being of a finer quality than the wartime production. However, that does not preclude the possibility of a private purchase of a nicer cloth by an upscale regiment, particularly in the early war period.

Hope you can find those quotes. The more pieces of the puzzle we have, the clearer the picture gets.

…and then we got into a labyrinth, and when we thought we were at the end, came out again at the beginning, having still to seek as much as ever.

Plato – Euthydemus

Kind of describes this hobby.

[rbruno]

Re: Trying to find fabric I've never heard of...

Need to make a correction in my previous post. Mumford graduated from VMI, not UVA. One company and their Capt were from Charolettesville. The Capt of that company and regimental surgeon were UVA grads. The company was filled with the "flower" of the youth in the area. I wonder how many of today's 20 year old males would like to be described as the "flower" of area. Still searching for that quote. I know it is in that book somewhere.

[brimorse]

Re: Trying to find fabric I've never heard of...

Gents,

I now have an image of the wool in question. My understanding is this garment was made back in the 70's, and this is the wool we are looking for.

Any ideas where to find it? I haven't yet had a chance to search through the on line offerings...



Brian Morse
11th Indiana Zouaves

[PMFerringer]

Re: Trying to find fabric I've never heard of...

Based on the photo of the jacket, I would not look for the specific fabric. The color looks the same as other cadet wools and wool broad cloths. Take advantage of the many accurate fabrics available that will fit the bill instead of chasing fabric from a photo of an inaccurate jacket.

[Silas]

Re: Trying to find fabric I've never heard of...

The posting of that photo has changed the place where this thread belongs. Some good responses to a seemingly valid initial question are the only reason why this thread hasn't been closed. In deference to the responders, I have moved this from the authenticity forum to the sinks.