civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

[Danny]

It's obvious why soldiers would carry pre-loaded paper cartridges, but civilians carried guns for protection or hunting. There was no need to carry a pouch of pre-loaded paper cartridges since the gun can be charged as needed directly from a powder flask with the proper spout for the gun (followed by minie ball and paper patch).

Would this have been a common usage? How about for a civilian reenactor (just powder followed by a paper patch)?

Did native americans fighting for themselves out west use pre-loaded paper cartridges during the CW time period?

[MuleyGil]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

I doubt there were many rifle muskets in the hands of civilians during the War.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

There is no definitive answer here other than to say there is no evidence of manufactured cartridges for military rifle-muskets used by civilians to my knowledge. And certainly military arms were not available for sale to civilians until post-bellum when the stockpiles already on hand needed to be dissolved to pay down the war debt. Loose powder, patch and ball for hunting rifles were in wide use at the time which is what you would expect.

[Danny]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

I doubt there were many rifle muskets in the hands of civilians during the War.

Why doubt it? I've never seen any evidence that rifles couldn't be obtained by anyone. Many civilians -- congressmen, gamblers, stagecoach drivers, wagonmasters, cowboys, bar keeps and whores sported Colt and Remington capped revolvers at a minimum -- while private militias, scouts, buffalo hunters, and renagade indians commonly used capped rifles. Powder, caps and even pre-loaded paper cartridges were available to the public, and mass-produced rifles weren't hard to find or buy legally (not to mention illegally or as found littering battlefields or even through the mail). Still, if there's some period accounts or printed reference that non-issued rifle use was unlikely, I'm in for it.

[maillemaker]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

I do recall reading that troops were making private purchases of carbines, like the Henry and Spencer (I can't remember which in particular I am remembering), due to the benefits afforded by them. What I don't know is if those private purchases were limited to only people enlisted in the military. I would tend to doubt this and think instead that an arms manufacturer/dealer would sell arms to anyone that could legally buy them.

Steve

[jtrotta]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

Why doubt it? I've never seen any evidence that rifles couldn't be obtained by anyone. Many civilians -- congressmen, gamblers, stagecoach drivers, wagonmasters, cowboys, bar keeps and whores sported Colt and Remington capped revolvers at a minimum -- while private militias, scouts, buffalo hunters, and renagade indians commonly used capped rifles. Powder, caps and even pre-loaded paper cartridges were available to the public, and mass-produced rifles weren't hard to find or buy legally (not to mention illegally or as found littering battlefields or even through the mail). Still, if there's some period accounts or printed reference that non-issued rifle use was unlikely, I'm in for it.

Danny,

Is there any way you can be more specific with your question? What do you mean by "capped rifles"? Are you talking about commercially produced arms (as your second reply references), or rifled-muskets produced under Federal contract for specific use by the military (as the subject of this thread appears to reference)? Along with the folks who have replied above, I am assuming you mean the latter.

I'm not an expert in how contractors delivered arms to the government (and the loopholes that may have existed), but the idea that a contractor would produce extra rifled muskets "on the side" for commercial sale during war-time seems like an ill-advised business decision (breach of contract, no?). I hope someone more knowledgeable than I can weigh in.

[NMVolunteer]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

No, but on the other hand they produced muskets and rifles outside of military contracts. The Henry Rifle, if I remember correctly, was manufactured privately and outside of government contracts, and was purchased by soldiers and units outside of the official channels.

Michael Denisovich

[Danny]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

...What do you mean by "capped rifles"? Are you talking about commercially produced arms (as your second reply references), or rifled-muskets produced under Federal contract... I am assuming you mean the latter.

By capped rifles I mean rifles that use caps. It's a moot point how civilians obtained them. At least a few were military contract weapons that were "siphoned off" to civilians via battleground finds, militia issue detours, back-door commissary deals, stolen shipments etc. Anyway, the term "rifled musket" does not specifically indicate government issue only.

Gov't armory produced weapons weren't the only source of weapons for the government. The gov't also purchased commercially available arms. In any event I've never seen any reference that private-purchase of capped revolvers or rifles required proof of current government military service, but if there is I'm open to it.

The original question here is: Would civilians using capped rifles need to carry a box of pre-charged paper cartridges? since these guns could as easily be charged directly with powder from a flask directly (followed by a bullet and a paper patch) for each shot. The expedient of having a cartridge box with many rounds at the ready does not apply to civilian activities of hunting and occasional personal defense. (I understand that a militiaman, technically still a civilian, would carry a cartridge box).

[MuleyGil]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

What would a civilian load into his rifle musket, provided he could obtain one? Bullet moulds from the era would have been for making round balls or solid bullets. A round ball would require a patch, negating the speedy loading of the standard Minie/Burton hollow base bullet. I doubt there were any hollow base bullet moulds for sale.

I'm sure that someone with influence could obtain a rifle musket from a contract manufacturer or even a government arsenal. It is also doubtful that that said individual would acually use one for hunting or self defense.

[NMVolunteer]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

Bullet moulds from the era would have been for making round balls or solid bullets. A round ball would require a patch, negating the speedy loading of the standard Minie/Burton hollow base bullet. I doubt there were any hollow base bullet moulds for sale.

I have three at my museum. I will check them on Monday, but I suspect you are correct.

Michael Denisovich

[Danny]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

What would a civilian load into his rifle musket, provided he could obtain one? Bullet moulds from the era would have been for making round balls or solid bullets. A round ball would require a patch, negating the speedy loading of the standard Minie/Burton hollow base bullet. I doubt there were any hollow base bullet moulds for sale.

I'm sure that someone with influence could obtain a rifle musket from a contract manufacturer or even a government arsenal. It is also doubtful that that said individual would acually use one for hunting or self defense.

One of us is missing something really obvious.

A civilian would load a round ball or bullet including, if they preferred, a Minie hollow base (originally wood plug) base bullet, just like any soldier would. Why not? Again, a soldier uses pre-loaded paper cartridges to save time, but they could also load directly from a powder flask followed by a Minie bullet if out of paper cartridges.

I understand that the Minie was developed for military purposes, something that didn't need to be tight rammed with a wad down the barrel, for the purpose of continuing fire (unlike brown Bess or similar rifles. So Minie bullets addressed a military expedient, but it became the state of the art for rifles generally, government contract or not.

Again what reason (a source would be nice) is there to think civilians wouldn't commonly have rifle muskets and any sort of ammunition or bullet mould that goes with it? Rifle muskets were not a proprietary, restricted military technology at all. The technology had been in place for more than a decade by the time of the CW, plenty of time for a civilian to obtain it legally from a store selling Colt, Remington etc. rifles. It wasn't necessary to obtain the military model of the gun, tho as pointed out there were many ways to do that as well.

BTW, the topic is a totally legitimate civilian impression question so why did this end up in the sinks?

[Silas]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

BTW, the topic is a totally legitimate civilian impression question so why did this end up in the sinks?

Being moved to the sinks is a sure sign that a thread is on life support. The moderators are giving it a chance to live verses killing it entirely. Should this thread continue to remain light on facts and heavy on argument, it will be unceremoniously dumped in an offline subforum known as, "Potter's Field."

[PMFerringer]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

A patched round ball or round ball set on a wad would give little to no advantage in a rifled musket. The rifling is not cut for that. It is too shallow and wide. I suspect unless there was a source for proper projectiles, civilians would have stuck with civilian rifles or even old smooth bores due to their versatility. That being said, there sure are a lot of post war sporterized originals floating around so it makes you wonder if they used them for shotguns since the rifling wasn't conducive to PRB or just said screw it and used PRB anyway with the same accuracy as firing a PRB out of a smoothbore. For what it's worth a tightly patched roundball out of a smoothbore will give 6" groups at 100 yards. Given the shortage of arms, particularly in the south which militarized civilian guns by the wagon load it is kind of far fetched to assume period military arms made it into the hands of civilians in numbers to warrant representation. Post war is a different story. One would be better off with an old flintlock military musket, shotgun, or civilian rifle/smoothbore.

As to your question about paper cartridges, it seems unlikely they would have carried a bunch of pre-rolled cartridges. Civilians loaded from pouches and horns for a very long time. Regardless of whether or not they could acquire minies they likely loaded them from horn/flask and shooting bag.

Sorry for the somewhat irrelevant answers but it is important to consider when answering the specific question.

[Danny]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

No point to continue the topic on the AC, posters can't seem to get beyond the idea that civilians didn't have common access to military muskets -- which no one disputes but whatever.

The actual topic was to determine how civilians used capped rifled muskets (including bullets and molds for them) that were available to them on the commercial market. Not armory built weapons. Not government contract weapons. We know Colt, Remington, Henry all sold such rifles directly or through authorized public stores to anyone who wanted them, (as they did revolvers), but with all the doubting and suppostion going on I'm going with the apparent AC veterans' assunption that civilians didn't commonly have or use capped rifle muskets because they were soldier's weapons.

End of story, so the question of whether such weapons could be charged directly from a powder flask instead of pre-made paper cartridges is moot.

[NMVolunteer]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

To clarify the question, are you asking about the weapons of Jim Bridger, Kit Carson, the Overland Trail, and so on? Or are you asking about civilian hunters in the Northeast? Examples of rifles carried by (or at least attributed to) Jim Bridger and Kit Carson exist, and they are percussion cap civilian rifles. Some of the frontiersmen brought old model US muskets, converted to percussion cap, from the Springfield and Harper's Ferry arsenals (and presumably sold off as surplus after the introduction of the M1842), at least according to an old book I found at a library. The Masonic Lodge of Santa Fe allegedly has a Hawken percussion cap rifle attributed to Kit Carson.

And the curse of my employer's web filter blocking this forum is that I have to switch back and forth from phone to computer and cannot copy/paste links. An account in Early Days in Kansas: Along the Santa Fe Trail by C.R. Green indicates that he brought "an old Mexican war musket" when he moved to Kansas from Pennsylvania. This does indicate that civilians would have old surplus weapons, but perhaps not the latest. Something else to consider is to see if there are any remaining documents for sales of Sharps carbines and rifles. Another thing to check would be documents for the Mormon flight to Utah, to see if Brigham Young specified anything about ammunition or the carrying of ammunition. He did mandate that percussion caps were to be carried in a buckskin pouch, according to a reporter who researched it for a 1994 article of the Salt Lake Tribune (09/11/1994, D1). Any documents on local/fromtier militias would be useful as well, as they would have just their civilian weapons; regulations for their ammunition or ammunition pouches/bags/flasks would tell you how the civilians loaded their weapons.

Michael Denisovich