civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

Danny,
You seem to be conflating several questions into one.
If I go by the initial post, you seem to be asking if civilians used paper cartridges with their (civilian?) arms. The answer to that is, depending upon the type of arm you're discussing: Yes.

As you cite, commercially available revolvers of the era also had commercially available paper cartridges. Similarly, commercially available metallic cartridge arms had commercially available metallic cartridges. Nothing shocking here.

It is a separate question to ask if during wartime civilians used military arms with military paper cartridges. My answer there is:

The absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence, but that does not give you evidence of presence.

"If they used it, then they'd have had it" -Trademark Me

[Danny]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

(a) The missing evidence is that civilians did commonly use capped rifled muskets capable of firing Minie bullets.

(b)The missing evidence is that civilians did not commonly use capped rifled muskets capable of firing Minie bullets.

Based on the few AC veteran reponses here, it appears that (a) is the one that needs to be proved, not (b).

(As an aside, there is one case of a civilian, Harriet Tubman, using a rifled musket in Union army venue).

Anyway, with light evidence all around, I defer the topic is not much appropriate for any AC thread. Thanks for all the comments.

[maillemaker]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

A civilian would load a round ball or bullet including, if they preferred, a Minie hollow base (originally wood plug) base bullet, just like any soldier would.

As an aside here, I do not think the United States ever adopted a plug of any sort. This was a British endeavor that was used with their Enfield style cartridges using smooth-sided "Pritchett" style bullets that were used as paper-patched bullets by the design of the cartridge. The plugs were originally of boxwood but later, due to shortages of the wood, made from fired clay.

During the development of the Burton ball in the 1850s, though initial experiments were conducted with a plug it was discovered that expansion of the charge would obdurate the ball fine without the need for a plug. When the Confederates adopted the British Enfield style of cartridge they also omitted the plug. I recall reading, but cannot remember where, that the Confederacy considered the plug more of a packing/shipping protection to prevent the skirt of the bullet from being dented during shipping and handling than as something necessary for deformation of the bullet into the rifling.

What is really needed is some evidence of private ammunition manufacturers, of which there were plenty producing ammunition for federal arsenals early in the war, selling the same ammunition to private buyers. For example, commercial advertisements offering such ammunition for sale to private individuals.

I seem to recall reading, but again I cannot remember where, of how early in the war they had to squelch some private sales of arms, munitions, and munition ingredients because they were finding their way to Confederate agents. I remember one story that was relayed first-person of how they were just a step ahead of agents pursuing them as they spirited away the shipment.

Steve

[Danny]

Civilian use of rifles and revolvers

Civilians of the Antebellun and Civil War years had easy access to the latest military pattern rifles and revolvers. Though some governmental restrictions were attempted they counted for nothing, since by then modern firearms (including Minie bullet types) had been commercially available for years before the war, and thousands of guns were already in circulation outside of the U.S. Army inventory. They were typically sold through hardware and (oddly) Jewelry stores or the sales offices of the gun manufacturers themselves.

The largest commercial source at the time was the firm of Schuyler, Hartley & Graham based in NY and elsewhere, i.e “...The firm of Schuyler, Hartley & Graham was formed in 1854.... In 1860, at the outbreak of the war, they were the largest American dealers in firearms.” 1

That firm alone had “...buyers throughout the industrialized East, the rural South and the burgeoning West, including Saint Louis and Chicago. Firearms were needed for hunting, target shooting and protection, and buyers included sportsmen, shopkeepers, gentlemen and emigrants. There was no lack of willing buyers of new and used firearms in the years prior to the Civil War, and the firm, Schuyler, Hartley & Graham flourished.” 2

A Civil War period Harpers Weekly ad reads “Guns, Pistols, Military Goods, French and English Fancy Goods. Schuyler, Hartley & Graham Also, a full assortment of Jet. Coral, and Steel Goods. Schuyler, Hartley & Graham, 19 Maiden Lane & 22 John Street. N. Y., 31 Rue du Chateau d’Eau, Paris. Sands St, Birmingham, Eng.” 3 To note that buying a rifle was no different than buying jewelry or other fancy goods. Ya pays yer money and ye gets yer stuff.

From that company's own Civil War period catalogue we can see that even the latest military style gun and related equipments were available [excerpted by me to save space]: “ILLUSTRATED CATALOGUE OF MILITARY GOODS. Arms and Ammunition....Smith’s Patent Breach Loading Carbines and Rifles...No. 372 ...Ball...No.373 ...No. 374 Charger for Carbine... ...No. 375 Cartridge-Box ...No.376 French Floberg Rifle” 3

Shouldn't we be pretty comfortable to have a revolver or rifle musket in Civilian impression, in those cases representing a person who would need such "heat", especially near a war zone or in the territories with Indian aggressions. Certainly a shotgun is in order.
- - - - - - - - - - -

1 from: "Commercial America" VOL. IX July, 1912 no. 1 Published Monthly by the Foreign trade bureau Philadelphia commercial museum 34th Street below Spruce, Philadelphia, U. S. A.

2 from: "American Society of Arms Collectors Bulletin" 83:23-37, pgs. 83/24 through 83/27

3 ads as reproduced in ref. 1

[Michael Comer]

Re: Civilian use of rifles and revolvers

Revolvers and shotguns were certainly circulating among civilians. Muskets - you already did a post on that.

Short answer is revolvers and shotguns are certainly appropriate. As to muskets, if you want to carry a musket as a civilian, nobody is stopping you.

[jtrotta]

Re: Civilian use of rifles and revolvers

Danny,

It is difficult to create a powerful argument that an impression is authentic when it is built on inference. Therefore, no... I don't think the authentic community should be comfortable with an impression that cannot be supported with direct evidence.

I don't see anything in the sources you have provided (in this thread or your last) that can be used to directly support the use of a rifled-musket of military pattern in a civilian setting.

[Danny]

Re: Civilian use of rifles and revolvers

It's been inferred that rifle muskets did not circulate among civilian population, with no direct evidence to support that either.

That's why the question. And what to do with the sporadic evidence of such guns that (by period accounts) were carried by civilians, i.e. scouts, hunters, native americans, militiamen, stagecoach drivers, slave catchers, drovers, wagon masters, deputies etc. etc. And what to do with the fact (not inference) that S,H & G became the largest seller of firearms after the Mexican War and before the Civil War, before the really big government contracts. We know from the period ads they were selling very advanced rifles. That's not an inference but direct evidence.

But ok, let's just go that they mostly sold revolvers and shotguns to civilians, not rifles.

[Silas]

Re: Civilian use of rifles and revolvers

The two threads have been merged because they're really the same premise asked in different ways by the same individual.

[MuleyGil]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

The rifle musket was adopted in 1855. The US had two national armories, Harpers Ferry, Virginia and Springfield, Massachusetts. Production went to the Army, the Navy, the Marine Corps and to the state militias. I'm sure some of these arms could have been siphoned off, but not on a large scale and not for sale to the civilian market. When the 1861 rifle musket was adopted, those arms also went to the military.

Unlike Colt and Remington, whose products were sold on the civilian market prior to the war, the rifle musket and its ammunition was developed for the military. Until the war started and contractors started building rifle muskets, there wasn't any "extra" weapons built and I doubt many were diverted away from the military contracts. After the war started, weapons left on the battlefield were picked up by people living nearby.

If someone can provide evidence that there was use of rifle muskets by civilians pre-war, I'll gladly concede that I was wrong.

[NMVolunteer]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

Civilians on the frontier did have smoothbore flintlock muskets, and they did have smoothbore flintlock muskets with a percussion lock conversion. I suspect the original poster needs to search for records or accounts of civilian gunsmiths rifling out old smoothbores for civilian owners. And of course post the results, because that would be interesting to read.

Michael Denisovich

[Danny]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

I suspect the original poster needs to search for records or accounts of civilian gunsmiths rifling out old smoothbores for civilian owners.
Michael Denisovich

Since commercial rifle makers between 1845 and 1865 offered anything from revolvers to rifled muskets to breech-loading metal-cartridge repeaters to any entity or person beyond the US Government (including individual civilian buyers through local jewelry stores, NY storefronts, or even the front sales offices of the manufacturers themselves) , there's no need to strain oneself finding records or accounts of civilian gunsmiths rifling out old smoothbores.

Jury's in: any civilian could obtain a rifled musket between about 1850 up to and beyond 1865, to concede though it's highly unlikely rifled muskets were commonly obtained by civilians.

Civilians using rifled muskets wasn't practical. They were intended and designed for military use. We know civilians instead used the latest types of revolvers, shotguns and smooth-bores. These were obtained and used by the thousands by civilians between 1850 up to and beyond 1865. A civilian impression is authentic with such use.

[Silas]

Re: civilian use of rifled musket - cartridges?

Burns : Say, good night, Gracie.

Allen : Good night Gracie.