Have we gone soft?

[Silas]

In an offline discussion between moderators, the topic of softness arose. The word itself wasn't used, but the idea is that too many events are filled with mainstream attitude. Our cutting edge has dulled. We have become mainstreamers.

I'm not bashing the mainstream part of the hobby. I'm saying that if we talk the talk about being different, we also need to walk the walk. Yes, you've got uber kewl kit just arrived by mail from Charlie Sutler. You sleep on the ground. You can actually cook bacon in the dark and eat from your haversack for a weekend. That's great, but there's more to portraying a soldier than these. Some of the things mentioned include : runnin' o-f-t to the parking lot at the end of Saturday obligations followed by Saturday night drinking fests, premature evacuation, poor or minimal knowledge of basic soldierly duties, continued need to teach drill at the lowest levels of the manuals, the ubiquitous presence of cell phone cameras and et cetera.

We have met the enemy and it is us. We've been spoiled by the adjuncts and grown accustomed to doing the minimums. This has caused the norm to drop and drop and drop.

What can you do to raise the bar to where it used to be?

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Have we gone soft?

I got a feeling a large portion of what Silas refers to here is due to poor club organization and event execution...

-the post 150th era momentum downturn
-popularity of other time periods now
-balkanization of the hobby due to social media
-less people in the hobby from behind a keyboard
-less expendable income
-new generations that want to play video games and not actually do fieldcraft
-graying of the main hobby organizers, etc.

...all play a key role in how strong our organizations are and how often we meet and keep each other involved. This leads to the above conduct Silas mentions, IMHO. Simple enough, I think.

The 40 Rounds events and supporting your local mess events are great ways to help overcome much of this. (shameless plug) LOL ;)

[coastaltrash]

Re: Have we gone soft?

The Independent Rifles were geographically stretched to the point where we adopted the "Go Live Friday" concept to events like Blakeley. Because the largest complaint I received hosting events was not getting the chance to see and visit with one another, so we started killing events on Saturday night. It worked for us, most people that come to the events seem to enjoy it and I don't see it changing for our organization anytime soon.

As someone who headed an organization for a decade I can say, and I made this mistake a lot, forcing or attempting to force someone into an activity will burn out a member faster than age.

[Captmort11th]

Re: Have we gone soft?

John,
I'm a new member to the site. I've recently became capt of my unit, and want to "bring back the old ways" as I call it. I must admit, we are
a mainstream unit, but I want to slowly, bring the unit back to their "hard core" roots. Can you explain the 40 rounds events, local mess events you mentioned?
I like this site very must, it has already proven quite helpful.

Thank you
Capt. John Mort

[Tyler Underwood]

Re: Have we gone soft?

We have began to stray far away from our roots, and what it really means to set the standard for authenticity. There has been much more focus on looking the part rather that doing or acting the part of a soldier.
Pat, the whole idea of "ending" the event Saturday evening or first thing Sunday morning is something that I have really grown to like in the past few years. Just recently I had a discussion with someone about ending early for several reasons. I realize I am hijacking the thread a little but it seems like it is a little easier for folks to take a Friday off rather than a Monday. This helps prepare folks by knowing what they need to get done at work before they leave on their long weekend and then gets them home at a decent time on Sunday to get ready for the upcoming work week.
As far as the other topics that were mentioned, I do remember and miss the days of doing kit inspection prior to stepping off. There is a real lack of knowledge when it comes to basic company evolutions. Difficulty with manual of arms, stacking arms, basic company and battalion evolutions or even giving proper commands seems to have plagued us.
While I can fully respect a person's views in a recent post about correct nomenclature when referring to the type of bayonet scabbard being used, I believe that is the least of our concerns.
What our end of the hobby really needs is a good LONG weekend of camp of instruction.
We need to get back to the basics of learning crisp manual of arms, how to march etc.
I am sure I will catch some heat over this but it needs to be said. Guys need to physically be able to perform the tasks of a soldier too. When a person fails in their ability to complete a short march carrying their kit they have then made themselves a liability and have put extra work on others. So if you cannot walk an hour wearing your kit you may want to think about either doing better prepping or rethink your choice of hobby.
Rant over for now.

[Ambrose Bierce]

Re: Have we gone soft?

Let's keep the main thing the main thing: To Silas' point, have we gone soft?

Well, as always, it depends. People show up to events for three reasons; the site and its distance from them (tied to the travel/combat radius of the participant); the scenario and whether they think it is cool enough; and amenities such as, no kidding, is there a sutler row and can I get to my car if I need to do so. People also like to burn powder. Don't think it matters? Try hosting an unopposed picket post where there is nothing but picket duty and you are bored out of your mind at night and see how many people show up.

We live in an age where people can't be away from their devices. Some of this is for legitimate reasons, and others are simply because people can't seem to put them down or live without them for a weekend. This relates to scenarios where people are not sure if they can/will be able to endure a weekend of Civil War soldiering without said device. When people are told not to bring them, they do so anyway, so at least try to be discreet if you do.

That brings me to the main issue. Are we setting up and going to events to recreate soldier life or to just hope it ends on time so we can see our buddies? There are plenty of event options for everyone, but I wager that the more is asked of participants the fewer will show up. The Picket Post is a great example of that.

People who attended had a great event (I will never say I have hosted or planned the best one ever--someone else already has claimed that, and I missed it, incidentally!), but a lot of people who registered were scared off at the last minute about what it would entail. Not calling out names, but attrition on the day of, particularly on the Fed side, was ridiculous. Know what you are getting into, in other words. I try to be very blunt and up front about what the expectations are for the event and the standards. To the point of pre-event inspections, I have never seen someone sent home for having a bad kit. Lawsuits result from stuff like that, if not fisticuffs. See my point just before this one.

If people have to drive a long way they want a great scenario that challenges them and allows for them to get enough rest to make it home for work on Monday morning. Tyler is correct about the Friday vs. Monday off from work thing. This thread isn't about event planning, per se, but what the participant gets out of going to an event. The event that meets everyone's requirements just so, allows for nirvana and happiness across the strata of participants, and leaves everyone satisfied as they drive home whistling a period tune doesn't exist. Jim Butler taught me that. Therefore, you have to find your own karmic alignment within the hobby. Again, plenty of event options for you. Some of them have been announced for two years from now already. I haven't eaten lunch yet, so that is my close goal.

Like Pat said, ending the event early is one option. Allows for socializing, people to get some real sleep, and everyone knows Saturday is the big day anyway. For our end of the hobby, does that mean we need events that historically end by dark on a Saturday and use Sunday for travel? I don't know, but I like to look at scenarios that are fun and untried, let the history write the script, and if we don't want spectators, we need to plan events that don't have any.

I think this gets to the crux of Silas' questions. Why are we doing any of this? Why take the time to research, to assemble and build an impression, to get it right? Shouldn't it be a mix of soldiering, material culture, and trying to achieve the moment we seek? Ken Cornett said the best events he has attended are the ones that focus on the soldier vice anything else. I agree, but a large-scale event has its advantages, but 140 man battalions just aren't going to cut it, and it doesn't matter how many guys you have if they can't drill.

The Liberty Rifles hosted a superior garrison event at Point Lookout about a month ago. Full sized battalion drill was conducted and soldier life was run per the manuals. It was excellent. The travel radius for most participants was within four-to-six hours, so people didn't get smoked by all of the drill and activities and the event ended at 11 on Sunday. I had an eight hour drive and made it home in good order. It just depends on what you want to get out of the time you are willing to invest in your car coming and going to the event and if the scenario is cool enough for you to get there. Granted, we slept in an awesome Civil War barracks and the PLO site is amazing, but without those amenities, would people have made the drive? Not sure, but to have things like period sutlers, wagons, artillery, and other fun stuff, details equals dollars.

That leads to amenities. Some events give you a lot for a little. Most of those have some sort of backstop for water, firewood, toilets, and other things that are either offset by an adjunct, or the use of a public park or site. Others require more money for insurance, landowner stipends, bounties for wagons and horses, ammo for artillery, and feeding the participants.

All of this takes planning and it is really hard to plan for people attending an event, let alone front the cash to ensure everything is in place, if people wait until the last dang minute to register. Do everyone a favor and just sign up. If you don't go, or you can't, better to have signed up and given some dough to preservation and assisting the hobby with a quality event than moan about the $20 you didn't get back.

In the main, if we are the leaders in this side of the hobby, and it is our hobby, then let's support each other's efforts, get out to events, pitch in where able, and, above all, know what to expect and come out for Civil War soldiering as it was meant to be. That might mean overnight in a rifle pit, but isn't that the point?

To Mr. Mort's question, we host events at www.40roundsevents.com check out our website and that will give you a better explanation of what Johnny is talking about. Hope to see you and your unit join us.

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Have we gone soft?

Gentlemen, and those of you from Texas;

Having stepped back from the Civil War for two years, and participating in another era, I have seen and noticed a different atmosphere when doing Civil War.
- I agree with the "go live Friday" mentality. It simply works better.
- Much like the "downsizing/drawbacks" of the military ( 150th era momentum downturn) and the rebuilding that comes following that, there will be a period of restructuring.

It's good that Silas has put this subject on the table, otherwise there could be a possibility of loosing past momentum.... your mileage may vary.

[Arch Campbell]

Re: Have we gone soft?

I feel like in the discussion over how long events are and when they should end, the topic has switched from "what do/should we expect from ourselves?" to "what should we expect from events?"

I dont think its fair to put our own individual failings on the event. I think what Silas was getting at is that our own internal, personal standards for ourselves as individual "soldiers" has dropped, and I agree with him. (DISCLAIMER: I am old) When I first got into this side of the hobby in the late 80s/early 90s, the authentic wing was the better drilled faction by far. Having modern contraband on your person was simply unacceptable. Neither of these things seem true anymore.

Again, I am not calling for events or units to have higher standards- as Ivan pointed out above, this can be counterproductive. We need to each individually (certainly including myself) look inward and ask ourselves, "What should my own internal standards be? Do I measure up? What can I do better? Should I get together with my pards for a drill? Do I really need to go to the wagons in the middle of an event? Should I be live tweeting an event?" Personally, I need to lose some weight- that's a big thing I have to be brutally honest with myself about. What do you need to confront yourself about?

Of course I could be wrong, but this seems to be more what Silas was getting at. Just my two cents

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Have we gone soft?

Arch brings up a couple of interesting points:
1) The man.
2) The man at the event.

The man:
Needs to be physically ready for the physical effort required, have his kit squared away, and be mentally ready to do what is required (know the drill, the scenario, etc).

The man at the event:
Needs to hold his own wants, desires, and comforts as subservient to the event organizers' goals, the good order of his pards, company, etc,

"Back in the day", there were at least two drills every day of an event: Company and Battalion. Sometimes, just for fun, there might be bayonet drill, or skirmish drill. Every private HATED drilling, but we did it. We voluntarily gave ourselves over to the authority of the NCOs and officers (yes, its only a play pretend role!) over us.

The results...
Comraderie through embracing the suck.
We were actually pretty good at drill!

How do you get there? Easy! Just show up with a good attitude and don't quit. No one around you will let you have a bad time.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Have we gone soft?

Along with the good, old-fashioned personal discipline needed at events... a suggestion:

If I remember, there was a time period of events about 10+ years ago when we arrived on Thursday of an event weekend and went live that night (Thurs) until Saturday night/early Sunday morning.

So... Why not go back to that formula so guys can have one night (Sat) to socialize, since we all RARELY see each other but once or twice each year other than 'keyboard kampaigning'. Having the last day 'out of scenario' would give guys the ability to enjoy camaraderie and have some fun. This, in turn, might prevent people from socializing during the event (ie modern talk, cell phones, etc.), because we all know the event will end early and we can have some fun. After all, this is our 'time off'... ;)

I know we are trying to get events in-sync with the weekend of Fri/Sat/Sun because of time-off generally being easier on weekends for participants, thus supposedly maximizing participation (or does it???). I feel this 'weekend only' sync concept might work fine for some smaller and local events, but for the bigger ones (ie 40 Rounds events kind) where we invest MUCH money/time off to attend, this might work better and get guys more into the period moment since they know we cease to be live for one night so we can drink, have fun, BS with each other before a long drive home on Sunday. It can be soothing mentally when you know a stressful time will have a finite endpoint, in my experience.

So, bottom line... if gents want to be 'soft', give them planned time to be 'soft' at the event... I know I could use some time to de-stress after humping a rucksack for 48 hours.

We did it at Blakeley recently with a Sat night off and it worked, I think.

CAVEAT: NOT saying we should go all social/no work and BS like that- because it can get out of hand if we let it, however, having some built-in social time might help for when we have mission to execute in a hardcore way... after all, we are history geeks and will want to geek out with each other when we finally see each other. That is hard to prevent when guys take their time, money and effort for a 'weekend off'... people will want to see old friends and kindle new ones, as this isn't the real military. This can detract from mission or add to it, if we control it.

My .02 cents...

[Old Reb]

Re: Have we gone soft?

Get folks a swamp or a mountain away from the parking lot for 3 or 4 days and the soft will peel away.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Have we gone soft?

First,
Tom Yearby!! Great to hear from you! Its been too long!!

Last,

CAVEAT: NOT saying we should go all social/no work and BS like that- because it can get out of hand if we let it, however, having some built-in social time might help for when we have mission to execute in a hardcore way... after all, we are history geeks and will want to geek out with each other when we finally see each other.

Perhaps an "event" where we could get together to both "geek out" and socialize?
Save EFUBU events for hardcorin', but have a time set aside in the schedule to talk about event planning, geek out over material culture (and camp cooking, and fieldcraft, and...), put faces with names, etc.

[PogueMahone]

Re: Have we gone soft?

I can't tell you how many times I've started a response to this discussion and typed out multiple paragraphs, only to delete it and close the laptop and walk away.

I hear two things here:
1) the question raised as to why campaigner events no longer seem to be "campaigner events"
2) more rationalizing and justifying making events social

I think we all have to decide, are we here to reenact the lives of soldiers or to drink? I can drink anywhere, but I can only reenact at reenactments. You want social bonding? Give a group a task to complete and watch them bond through the task. You want to reduce the phones and cameras? Ban them. Inspect everyone before they leave the parking lot and have them take things back to the car and submit to re-inspection. We've done it before. Everyone still talks about that event. You want to keep people from leaving early? Separate them from their cars and the idea that they can leave easily. You want better drill and greater discipline in the ranks? Create standing companies with elected NCOs and officers that know the job and don't just play the role as seen in a movie. Don't make elections a popularity contest, make it a job of skills.

Most importantly, set a standard, observe the standard, demand the standard, and enforce the standard. People will either fall into line or leave. Let them leave. Once they figure out the best events require they comply with the standard, they will comply.

Yeah, this end of the hobby is soft. Softened by the last 6 years or so of mainstream adjuncts and lowered standards. Softened by the failure of leadership that chooses quantity over quality. Softened by the participants that throw away rations and run out to get dinner and beer in town. Softened by everyone that wants to look kewl, but can't tell you the history of the event or the impression.

Charles Heath would have set this place on fire years ago. I bet 95% of the people that come here 1) check the ads, 2) check the event announcements and 3) go to Facebook.

I'm old school. I remember when a one-sided picket post was a great event and people scrambled to get invited. I remember when events started Friday when you arrived and ended Sunday AFTERNOON. We planned our time off work and drive time to meet the situation. People that went to town to eat were ostracized and missed the best part of the event in camp. We had events where drill was expected, anticipated and executed. And these weren't public events!! We just wanted to "soldier on".

Well. I feel better. Thanks for the opportunity.

[john duffer]

Re: Have we gone soft?

I can't tell you how many times I've started a response to this discussion and typed out multiple paragraphs, only to delete it and close the laptop and walk away.

I hear two things here:
1) the question raised as to why campaigner events no longer seem to be "campaigner events"
2) more rationalizing and justifying making events social

I think we all have to decide, are we here to reenact the lives of soldiers or to drink? I can drink anywhere, but I can only reenact at reenactments. You want social bonding? Give a group a task to complete and watch them bond through the task. You want to reduce the phones and cameras? Ban them. Inspect everyone before they leave the parking lot and have them take things back to the car and submit to re-inspection. We've done it before. Everyone still talks about that event. You want to keep people from leaving early? Separate them from their cars and the idea that they can leave easily. You want better drill and greater discipline in the ranks? Create standing companies with elected NCOs and officers that know the job and don't just play the role as seen in a movie. Don't make elections a popularity contest, make it a job of skills.

Most importantly, set a standard, observe the standard, demand the standard, and enforce the standard. People will either fall into line or leave. Let them leave. Once they figure out the best events require they comply with the standard, they will comply.

Yeah, this end of the hobby is soft. Softened by the last 6 years or so of mainstream adjuncts and lowered standards. Softened by the failure of leadership that chooses quantity over quality. Softened by the participants that throw away rations and run out to get dinner and beer in town. Softened by everyone that wants to look kewl, but can't tell you the history of the event or the impression.

Charles Heath would have set this place on fire years ago. I bet 95% of the people that come here 1) check the ads, 2) check the event announcements and 3) go to Facebook.

I'm old school. I remember when a one-sided picket post was a great event and people scrambled to get invited. I remember when events started Friday when you arrived and ended Sunday AFTERNOON. We planned our time off work and drive time to meet the situation. People that went to town to eat were ostracized and missed the best part of the event in camp. We had events where drill was expected, anticipated and executed. And these weren't public events!! We just wanted to "soldier on".

Well. I feel better. Thanks for the opportunity.

That's the style Joe! That's the style!

[Tyler Underwood]

Re: Have we gone soft?

I can't tell you how many times I've started a response to this discussion and typed out multiple paragraphs, only to delete it and close the laptop and walk away.

I hear two things here:
1) the question raised as to why campaigner events no longer seem to be "campaigner events"
2) more rationalizing and justifying making events social

I think we all have to decide, are we here to reenact the lives of soldiers or to drink? I can drink anywhere, but I can only reenact at reenactments. You want social bonding? Give a group a task to complete and watch them bond through the task. You want to reduce the phones and cameras? Ban them. Inspect everyone before they leave the parking lot and have them take things back to the car and submit to re-inspection. We've done it before. Everyone still talks about that event. You want to keep people from leaving early? Separate them from their cars and the idea that they can leave easily. You want better drill and greater discipline in the ranks? Create standing companies with elected NCOs and officers that know the job and don't just play the role as seen in a movie. Don't make elections a popularity contest, make it a job of skills.

Most importantly, set a standard, observe the standard, demand the standard, and enforce the standard. People will either fall into line or leave. Let them leave. Once they figure out the best events require they comply with the standard, they will comply.

Yeah, this end of the hobby is soft. Softened by the last 6 years or so of mainstream adjuncts and lowered standards. Softened by the failure of leadership that chooses quantity over quality. Softened by the participants that throw away rations and run out to get dinner and beer in town. Softened by everyone that wants to look kewl, but can't tell you the history of the event or the impression.

Charles Heath would have set this place on fire years ago. I bet 95% of the people that come here 1) check the ads, 2) check the event announcements and 3) go to Facebook.

I'm old school. I remember when a one-sided picket post was a great event and people scrambled to get invited. I remember when events started Friday when you arrived and ended Sunday AFTERNOON. We planned our time off work and drive time to meet the situation. People that went to town to eat were ostracized and missed the best part of the event in camp. We had events where drill was expected, anticipated and executed. And these weren't public events!! We just wanted to "soldier on".

Well. I feel better. Thanks for the opportunity.

Best response yet!!!!