Have we gone soft?

[Hairy Nation Boys]

Re: Have we gone soft?

Way to go Joe! My thoughts exactly!

[Eric Tipton]

Re: Have we gone soft?

I can't tell you how many times I've started a response to this discussion and typed out multiple paragraphs, only to delete it and close the laptop and walk away.

I hear two things here:
1) the question raised as to why campaigner events no longer seem to be "campaigner events"
2) more rationalizing and justifying making events social

I think we all have to decide, are we here to reenact the lives of soldiers or to drink? I can drink anywhere, but I can only reenact at reenactments. You want social bonding? Give a group a task to complete and watch them bond through the task. You want to reduce the phones and cameras? Ban them. Inspect everyone before they leave the parking lot and have them take things back to the car and submit to re-inspection. We've done it before. Everyone still talks about that event. You want to keep people from leaving early? Separate them from their cars and the idea that they can leave easily. You want better drill and greater discipline in the ranks? Create standing companies with elected NCOs and officers that know the job and don't just play the role as seen in a movie. Don't make elections a popularity contest, make it a job of skills.

Most importantly, set a standard, observe the standard, demand the standard, and enforce the standard. People will either fall into line or leave. Let them leave. Once they figure out the best events require they comply with the standard, they will comply.

Yeah, this end of the hobby is soft. Softened by the last 6 years or so of mainstream adjuncts and lowered standards. Softened by the failure of leadership that chooses quantity over quality. Softened by the participants that throw away rations and run out to get dinner and beer in town. Softened by everyone that wants to look kewl, but can't tell you the history of the event or the impression.

Charles Heath would have set this place on fire years ago. I bet 95% of the people that come here 1) check the ads, 2) check the event announcements and 3) go to Facebook.

I'm old school. I remember when a one-sided picket post was a great event and people scrambled to get invited. I remember when events started Friday when you arrived and ended Sunday AFTERNOON. We planned our time off work and drive time to meet the situation. People that went to town to eat were ostracized and missed the best part of the event in camp. We had events where drill was expected, anticipated and executed. And these weren't public events!! We just wanted to "soldier on".

Well. I feel better. Thanks for the opportunity.

Outstanding.

[Ambrose Bierce]

Re: Have we gone soft?

Wauhatchie will fit the bill. Guaranteed.

Smotherman in '18!

[Andy Ackeret]

Re: Have we gone soft?

I also agree with what Mr. Smotherman posted.

My own un-original thoughts, not directed at any one person or organization: As I've become increasingly old and grumpy, I've come to a few truths for myself. One is, I can't do as many events as I used to 10-12 years ago. The second is, it's all about expectations, and that's everywhere in life. When one commits efforts into going, they hope to see what is promised.

When I commit to 12 hours of travel or more each way, and 1-2 of my limited vacation days, be honest with what the event is and what participants can expect.

If it's advertised as EBUFU and immersion and when you get there it's not, well, that's going to make you think long and hard about future endevours. If an event is also shorter than the travel time involved, well, that better be one heck of a time offered, and be up front about that. And Immersion doesn't have to be 24-7 guard rotations, but the military camp should still be run like a military camp. "Hey, you fellows worked hard today, the fictitious Company Z is on Guard now, you fellows get some rest. But lights out is still at tattoo, and revellie will still be at sun-up."

If it's advertised as a NPS Living History, then I hope to learn something when I'm there. I hope to see the actual ground where the unit being portrayed was fighting on.

If it's advertised as something else, well, tell us what it is. Sometimes new and different can be good. ;)

Participants: Remember you bring a lot to the event too. Planners can plan everything they plan with the best plans, but the attitude and knowledge you bring can change everything, and quickly. Have expectations for yourself and comrades.

Study before the event, both manuals and history books. *gasp, shudder*

Check your gear, what needs improvement, replacement, or what do you need to borrow. Document what you're wearing, don't try to make leaps to justify something that you know isn't right.

Be physically ready, exercise ahead of time. I have a few events this year that are going to tax my old butt, I'm already out there taking walks to get ready.

[Ambrose Bierce]

Re: Have we gone soft?

When I go campaigning, I go with Andy Ackert.

Stay authentic, my friends....

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: Have we gone soft?

I also agree with what Mr. Smotherman posted.
And Immersion doesn't have to be 24-7 guard rotations, but the military camp should still be run like a military camp. "Hey, you fellows worked hard today, the fictitious Company Z is on Guard now, you fellows get some rest. But lights out is still at tattoo, and revellie will still be at sun-up..

I agree and this! Event organizers and officers could push the men further during the day if they were not up all night. However, men need to take the rest like soldiers would have. Not make it a drunk frat party till 2am. The officers, NCOs and event planners would need to make that clear and enforce it.

[Rankin]

Re: Have we gone soft?

I can't tell you how many times I've started a response to this discussion and typed out multiple paragraphs, only to delete it and close the laptop and walk away.

I hear two things here:
1) the question raised as to why campaigner events no longer seem to be "campaigner events"
2) more rationalizing and justifying making events social

I think we all have to decide, are we here to reenact the lives of soldiers or to drink? I can drink anywhere, but I can only reenact at reenactments. You want social bonding? Give a group a task to complete and watch them bond through the task. You want to reduce the phones and cameras? Ban them. Inspect everyone before they leave the parking lot and have them take things back to the car and submit to re-inspection. We've done it before. Everyone still talks about that event. You want to keep people from leaving early? Separate them from their cars and the idea that they can leave easily. You want better drill and greater discipline in the ranks? Create standing companies with elected NCOs and officers that know the job and don't just play the role as seen in a movie. Don't make elections a popularity contest, make it a job of skills.

Most importantly, set a standard, observe the standard, demand the standard, and enforce the standard. People will either fall into line or leave. Let them leave. Once they figure out the best events require they comply with the standard, they will comply.

Yeah, this end of the hobby is soft. Softened by the last 6 years or so of mainstream adjuncts and lowered standards. Softened by the failure of leadership that chooses quantity over quality. Softened by the participants that throw away rations and run out to get dinner and beer in town. Softened by everyone that wants to look kewl, but can't tell you the history of the event or the impression.

Charles Heath would have set this place on fire years ago. I bet 95% of the people that come here 1) check the ads, 2) check the event announcements and 3) go to Facebook.

I'm old school. I remember when a one-sided picket post was a great event and people scrambled to get invited. I remember when events started Friday when you arrived and ended Sunday AFTERNOON. We planned our time off work and drive time to meet the situation. People that went to town to eat were ostracized and missed the best part of the event in camp. We had events where drill was expected, anticipated and executed. And these weren't public events!! We just wanted to "soldier on".

Well. I feel better. Thanks for the opportunity.

Excellent comment

[Danny]

Re: Have we gone soft?

An observer only, but this whole question of "softness" is only relative to Goal and Purpose.

If the Goal is to recreate the actual hardships of war, it will never happen because so much of the hardship back in the day was about long-term survival. Let's not kid ourselves; even a week-long event means coming back to cars, home and physical comforts on the 8th day, while the real soldiers had no such guarantee. imho, in a way it mocks them to be super hard core for a weekend. You can stand anything for a few days. There were reenactments staged during the war and post-war by the actual soldiers themselves, and they would not play with the illusion it was anything more than a reenactment.

If the Goal is to actually accomplish something martial, that will never happen because, for one big thing, there will be no killing. So the real goal has to be something else. Hard to admit, but the actual goal for most is to achieve excellence in a hobby. For far fewer the goal is to achieve a trancendental state. No judgement here.

[Jubilo]

Re: Have we gone soft?

Submitted for your approval counselor- just add humans. Result- disappointment.

[Spinster]

Re: Have we gone soft?

I knew I should not have looked

Smotherman is telling the Truth. Again.


The consideration of shifting event time frames is a valid one. These days I do more event support---what Charles Heath called Kabuki. Recently I had the experience (in an unrelated time period) of watching the combatants shift step off by almost a full day because they were on site and itching for a fight. They were wanting field rations while I was still dragging groceries in from the parking lot. Good. It doesn't take that long to make a hearty meal and get the War underway. As others checked in they were simply fed into the action. That event caps with a large meal Saturday afternoon, various evening combat, and participants leave at first light Sunday, cold breakfast and hot coffee in hand. Participants drove from Virginia and California to a site in the Trans-Mississippi. That Sunday morning shut down seems to mean a lot. Even to fellers who managed to start fighting on a Thursday

Participants should prepare physically for events. Sometimes even with preparation the body up and bites one like a snake. A treadmill in a gym is not hill in South Georgia. A participant should know when it's time to stay home--but a wise organizer also looks at the limitations of his participants , pushes them where he can, and does not outdistance their abilities too far. For one strenuous event, I went over health forms with Medical Control, not to eliminate men, but to determine who was most vulnerable, watch them more closely, and prepare for them more throughly. Adequate support staff allows for participants whose bodies can't cash the checks their heads are writing.

Especially when so many participants must push paper for a living, instead of more substantial things. .

[Captmort11th]

Re: Have we gone soft?

Tyler,
I agree with you 100%. My unit and parent unit as well, needs to practice more of the basics, sharpen our skills of the everyday soldier. In my short time as a company commander, and first sgt prior to that I was and am constantly hit with resistance by my fellow reenactors to drilling and getting back to basis soldiering. I hear a lot of " we only do this on the weekend, and we're not getting paid to do this." I keep working slowly and steadily to get their motivation back to why they started in the hobby in the first place. As an officer, and veteran I do my best to lead by example, which is why I joined this site. I've recommended this site to my entire unit, I find it very helpful. Thanks

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Have we gone soft?

Mr. Smotherman has a great point above. Biggest issue I see from his comment is that the non-immersion necessary 150th Adjuncts have spoiled the average hobbyist and we have to get back to basics of REAL soldier life.

So, next step: Now he have identified the problem, how are we going to remedy it operatively? Great to talk, but where is the action?

Separate thought:

Andy had a great point I was trying to make above...

And Immersion doesn't have to be 24-7 guard rotations, but the military camp should still be run like a military camp. "Hey, you fellows worked hard today, the fictitious Company Z is on Guard now, you fellows get some rest. But lights out is still at tattoo, and reveille will still be at sun-up."

Doing an immersion event doesn't mean you have to beat everyone up constantly with something to do... 1-2 nights of 24 hour ops followed by a period correct "stand-down" on the second/third night of the event is not a bad thing- guys can rest for the journey home, be 'period bored' etc. (Heck, you don't have to tell participants when this period 'chill-out time' might happen either, in order to keep them still on their toes and in the period moment.)

Look: We can get as 'authentic' as we can, but in the end, gents paid money and time off from work to come here and when they see friends they RARELY see in person, they will want to socialize. You cannot stop that, but you might be able to control it. Why not build that time into an event... OR take Wick's comment above: Make a separate meeting just solely for that purpose (ie "Authentic Campaigner Convention" or something of the sort ;)).

Another thing I see is leadership not willing to enforce no farbery for fear of angering friends. Yes, the 150th Adjunctivitis has gotten to us there too. I don't mind a gear inspection before an event. I don't mind calling out our own farbery when we are getting too much so. Honest mistakes happen regarding farb talk and such, but we all don't need to be so butthurt about it. It is part of martial discipline that is needed for an organization like ours. NOTE: We have a hard time in the REAL military keeping servicemembers on task like this, so this group dynamic is not unusual.

Real combat involves MANY hours of boredom, drill (ie doing your routine job), followed by a "mad minute" of action. Clearly, if kids don't like that, then they want to talk the talk, but not walk the walk... so go back to being a backyardigan in your kewl kit on social media and stay off the field.

But there is a point where we have to be realistic as to who is attending the event and what their natural tendencies are. Instead of playing the 'cranky campaigner' and saying eff-em-all, I think we can control this. Eventually when experiences are positive, we can get all hardcore again like before the 150ths, perhaps, because we will have GREATER attendee buy-in to what we are doing.

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Have we gone soft?

Participants should prepare physically for events. Sometimes even with preparation the body up and bites one like a snake. A treadmill in a gym is not hill in South Georgia. A participant should know when it's time to stay home--but a wise organizer also looks at the limitations of his participants , pushes them where he can, and does not outdistance their abilities too far. For one strenuous event, I went over health forms with Medical Control, not to eliminate men, but to determine who was most vulnerable, watch them more closely, and prepare for them more throughly. Adequate support staff allows for participants whose bodies can't cash the checks their heads are writing.

Especially when so many participants must push paper for a living, instead of more substantial things. .

It sounds like group leaders need to plan non-uniformed events that physically prepare participants, and provide opportunities for camaraderie. Like hikes, cemetery cleanups, and physical-labor volunteering at historic sites. That would allow participants to mingle outside of uniformed events, and they can focus completely on history when at battlefields and parks.

It must be a regional and age thing, but in New Mexico, I have not seen too much resistance to drill. That could be due to the tiny number of battles and battlefields, but the rangers with the NPS can get volunteers to show up with the promise of burning black powder and showing off for visitors.

Michael Denisovich

[PogueMahone]

Re: Have we gone soft?

Socializing is natural. It will occur on its own. Quit worrying about creating a time slot for it. If you issue rations and give them some time to build fires and cook, they will gather in groups and talk and gossip around the fires as they work.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Have we gone soft?

Socializing is natural. It will occur on its own. Quit worrying about creating a time slot for it. If you issue rations and give them some time to build fires and cook, they will gather in groups and talk and gossip around the fires as they work.

Yes, of course, but too much socializing is being done at the wrong times. Give the guys a mental break at the end of it all that they know about, and gents will feel more motivated to do what needs to be done, charge forward and maintain the momentum. Being inflexible isn't gonna help control bad habits. No one ever said compromise standards, though.

At the height of the authentic 'movement' in the late 1990s- early 2000s, playing 'cranky campaigner' was fine, but when the ranks are thinning from it, you have to change something to get people on board. At a later time, bring back the 'cranky campaigner' attitude when more join the ranks. I don't mind having fun, just period correct fun and in a way that fits the scenario. This ain't the real military and today's young people know it.

Winter 64 in 2008 was an AWESOME event. Why? We got one day to be period correct BORED in an 1864 winter quarters on the last day. We actually got to LIVE in our recreated 1864 and try to keep ourselves occupied while not on guard. Westville was AWESOME. Why? We had period correct down time involved all week after main scenarios were done. Picket Post last year was AWESOME. Why? When not on guard, gents could smoke a pipe, have a chew, talk, all in a tactical environment- that's 'down time' and period correct as well. Why can't this be applied to other types of events? Give the guys a time set-aside to socialize, I say.