Federal Blue

[dlindow]

Hello all,
Not sure where this would fit, so I though I'd just post here. I've been searching the web and the forum, but can't quite find the answer I'm looking for and was hoping someone might be able to shed some light on this subject. How prevalent would it have been for a Federal soldier to have a cap and blouse that were of two different shades of blue? Did it depend on the maker of the items and the amount of dye they used, or was it supposed to be uniform across the board, no matter who produced it? Thank you to anyone who can help me out here!

[Dbackfed]

Re: Federal Blue

I would imagine it happened quite a bit.

[jtrotta]

Re: Federal Blue

Derrick,

John Wedeward's site has a good comparison of originals, and the variations in color found. There is even one where the inner facing is of a different shade from the body. If this much variation was found in sack coats, I would imagine the same can be applied for caps considering the techniques in dyeing and sourcing of material used at the time. Also, considering the demand for uniform items, I don't think much consideration was given to making sure the shades matched between contractors/arsenals in order to pass inspection.

http://www.cwquartermaster.com/original_sack_coats.htm

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Federal Blue

Don't forget that items will also fade based upon how long they were exposed to sunlight. So if a fatigue cap and fatigue coat were not issued at the same time, one will show more fading than the other, even if they were made from the same workshop at the same time using the same dyes.

[jtrotta]

Re: Federal Blue

Don't forget that items will also fade based upon how long they were exposed to sunlight. So if a fatigue cap and fatigue coat were not issued at the same time, one will show more fading than the other, even if they were made from the same workshop at the same time using the same dyes.

Based on my understanding, indigo does not fade in sunlight (like a logwood dye would) as it forms a different bond with material (physical vs chemical bond). However, it does fade due to contact (rubbing, washing, etc.). So while your cap and blouse may fade differently based on wear and tear or your washing techniques, sunlight should not be the determining factor. Therefore, it is believed that the color of surviving examples (especially if unissued and cared for) are faithful to their color at time of production.

Hopefully those who are more knowledgeable in this area than I can weigh in as to the differences in dyes, and the difficulties in matching indigo dye lots.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Federal Blue

Hallo!

Vegetable dye stuffs were greatly dependent on a wide variety of variables such as purity, potency, concentration in the dye bath vats, purity, potency, and concentration of mordants.
Next came in the skill of the dyers in mixing the dyes and mordants, maintaining optimum temperature, and length of time in the bath.
Next was the nature of the fabric/textile itself. For example, different batches of wool based on how they were processed have different levels of lanolin in them.

Just to name a quick few.

And last, it is not likely that the same weight and weave of "woolens" would have been used to make caps or blouses or dress coats as many "mainstream brand X" vendors do today.

In brief.....under the "arsenal/depot system," batches of fabric were contracted for came in from different sources in differing quantity based on the individual mills' capacities and volumes. Same for contractor made goods. Finished goods were "warehoused" and crated/shelved awaiting requisitions where quantities were drawn from available inventory.

Curt

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Federal Blue

I've posted this before, I'm sure, but I find this one of the more interesting descriptions of faded indigo in the field. It comes from "Red Tape and Pigeon Hole Generals," written during the war by Lt. Col. Armstrong of the 129th PVI. The soldier belongs to a nine-month regiment and this scene must have occurred not much more than a month after it mustered in:

"One would scarcely have recognised in the rough sunburned countenance, surmounted by a closely fitting cap, once blue but now almost red, and not from the blood of any battle-field..." https://books.google.com/books?id=s0...&q=cap&f=false

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Federal Blue

Based on my understanding, indigo does not fade in sunlight (like a logwood dye would) as it forms a different bond with material (physical vs chemical bond). However, it does fade due to contact (rubbing, washing, etc.). So while your cap and blouse may fade differently based on wear and tear or your washing techniques, sunlight should not be the determining factor. Therefore, it is believed that the color of surviving examples (especially if unissued and cared for) are faithful to their color at time of production.

Hopefully those who are more knowledgeable in this area than I can weigh in as to the differences in dyes, and the difficulties in matching indigo dye lots.

I know of a few fabric conservators I can ask about that when I get to work tomorrow, but from what I learned in grad school, almost everything fades from sunlight. That almost sounds like a reenactorism to justify why uniforms still look fairly new, because they are just worn a few days per year.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Federal Blue

Yes and no.

There are two reasons why shades of blue could be different:
1) Normal dye-lot to dye-lot variations in color during productions.
This has always been an issue. Even in WW2, "cutter's tags" were used to identify pattern pieces cut from the same bolt of cloth in order to avoid (for example) sleeves that don't match the rest of the coat.

2) How different dyes fade with age.
There are heavily used extant original indigo-dyed coats that retain their original shade.

However, there is a CS officer's frock on display in South Carolina (SC Relic Room and Military Museum) with blue trim. However, you wouldn't know it was blue by looking at it, because the blue has oxidized to red.

It really depends on the chemistry behind the blue color and what happens when those compounds oxidize.

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Federal Blue

The wear is not the danger for dyes (although it is a danger for the structural integrity of stitches and seams, and could be problematic if combined with a very low relative humidity while folded in storage); it is UV radiation breaking down the dyes. Something sitting in a cedar chest and worn indoors for a century would not be particularly faded. Perhaps there is also a question of dye provenance. Is it possible that some of those uniforms were re-dyed by family after the war to bring back the vibrant indigo blue?

[jtrotta]

Re: Federal Blue

Sounds like we've all reached agreement that there was variation in color. So, I guess Derrick got his answer?

Two examples for consideration based on a quick search:
1) Heavy use during the war, still in good shape

http://www.cjdaley.com/newsletter/Apr04.htm

2) Although unissued, the lining has oxidized, yet coat maintains a nice color

http://www.cjdaley.com/boylancoat.htm

When done with skill, indigo holds up well. I don't know of any original examples that were re-dyed.

[dlindow]

Re: Federal Blue

Sounds like we've all reached agreement that there was variation in color. So, I guess Derrick got his answer?

Yes, I definitely did! Thank you all for your replies. It has been great reading through this discussion.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Federal Blue

The wear is not the danger for dyes (although it is a danger for the structural integrity of stitches and seams, and could be problematic if combined with a very low relative humidity while folded in storage); it is UV radiation breaking down the dyes. Something sitting in a cedar chest and worn indoors for a century would not be particularly faded.

Yes, regarding UV light, this would be the source for oxidation that I mentioned earlier, but UV is not the only source of oxidiation. Looking at the link to Daley's examination of the Boylan coat is pretty instructive. The lining would see minimal sun exposure, yet it has faded with time from its former black color, yet the self fabric is still quite blue.

And this...

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/a-gettysburg-survivor.130282/

Is it possible that some of those uniforms were re-dyed by family after the war to bring back the vibrant indigo blue?

You would see the evidence of this in all other surfaces of the coat. The piping would be overdyed and likely be a close match to the self fabric. Similarly, the lining (body, sleeve, tailpockets) would all show clear evidence of overdying.

"Never say never", but I have yet to see such a thing. Most folks never put that much effort into "Gran' Pap's old army coat". ;-)

[weed]

Re: Federal Blue

As they had to dye millions of yards of wool material with natural Dyes of indego by had , the amount of time "impurities in the wool, time in the dye and settitng solution (urin at 140 degrees all effected the finihed color In the Smithsonial Institution Video on Civil War Uniforms, a quartermaster in the Army of the Teenessee writes back to the Quatermaster at St. Louis Arsenal upon recieving on a "bundle of 100 pairs of trousers"" that NOT ONE is the SAME Color of blue as the others in the bundle of 100 pairs"!!! In His Master Piece "Mr. Lincoln's Army, Bruce Catton writes about the Iish Brigade having been issued uniforms that were nearly black. When attacking the Sunken Lane, the Confederates were yelling, "Go back you Black Devils" because of the darker color of their uniforms stood out so much.

Also, when looking at Surviving Uniforms, you have to ALSO take into consideration if "Cowles Prosess" of preservation was used on the uniforrm after the war in 1869/1876 to preserve it and how did that effect the color???? The ONLY thing that is certain is that they were NOT a purpleish color, which is a product of modern dye, not natural indago dye.

As I tell people, look at my web site on Sack Coats in the Smithonian Collection and NOT ONE is the same color as the others (and these ARE unissued uniforms). So I tell people, "You tell me the Exact REAL Color, and we will BOTH know!!

http://www.cwuniforms.net/Sack_Coats.html

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Federal Blue

You raised an interesting point, about Cowles's Process. That did indeed affect uniform colors, and set up the dyes to behave differently over time as well. One of the ingredients is copper sulfate.