What the heck?

[flattop32355]

Re: What the heck?

If you put up speed bumps, people will complain that they damage their vehicles or don't allow them to pay attention to the monuments as they drive by.
If you place barriers around the monuments, people will complain that they detract from the scenery and are an eye-sore.
If you forbid vehicles on the roads through the park, people will complain that they have to pay extra for the trams, so they won't be coming back.
If you forbid all traffic and make people walk through the park....well, you get the idea.

Some may say these are all viable ideas, but in the end, the goal of all federal parks is to be accessable to the public. As usual, the many suffer for the misdeeds/stupidity of the few. If anything, make the policy "If you break it, you pay for it".

[SCTiger]

Re: What the heck?

Those are sad pictures Chris. How are they going to replace that sort of material and artistry? Will they just cement the pieces together?

Maybe more aggressive police patrols to enforce the speed limits would be one answer. I don't see how a well made white-concrete curb about 6-10" could be placed in strategic locations could detract from the scenery. I mean you already have the post war monuments, a paved road, power poles and all sorts of modern scenery throughout the park. The battlefield purists want less modern props but, if you have the monument and roads, you need a first class barrier at the curb. Otherwise, this will happen more often, mainly because of speeding, ill educated drivers, the perceived "right to drive" and the multi-tasked driver, talking on the cell phone, operating computers, eating etc.

[Fireyfishstick]

Re: What the heck?

You want to talk about insurance rates going up. When I was a kid, I plowed over a mileage sign and I think my insurance went up 100 dollars a month. A metal sign is one thing, a one of a kind granite or marble sculpture is quite another. He will probably never afford insurance again! It is certainly suspicious that with all that open land these people just happen to plow into these monuments. Sorta like the girl in the horror movie who trips in the clear.

I hope they have these restored before July, seeing as I have never had the honor of seeing Gettysburg and had planned to get out there this summer.
But I'm sure it will be incredible even if all the yokles continue their " sclaping games".

-Jason Asher

[DonSmithnotTMD]

Re: What the heck?

Must be the water. Last summer, I helped fish an SUV out of a soft spot across from the Weatfield. Funny part is the driver ran off the straight part of the road before the curve.

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Re: What the heck?

Hopefully, the powers that be will seize the initiative and re-allow commercial bus service to Gettysburg. It's a tourist spot, a college town, and would cut down on the number of cars. I'm told that it's the Gettysburg Tour Center's doing -- they want to have total control of any and all buses that come into town, or something like that.

[GrumpyDave]

Re: Caltrops...Caltrops

PS The 58th is the third monument in the last 12 months to get hit (that I know of).[/QUOTE]

Don't forget the 50 feet of fence and the two guns along the Emmittsburg road. And, yes, there's been three so far this Spring. I haven't herd yet on this one but, I know the first two were drunk. :baring_te

[Miss Dixie]

Re: What the heck?

I"m all for making them pay for the damage they do, there is absolutly NO reason for this to be happening, other than reckless, uncaring behavior. Also, a huge fine, over the $25-$200 price range. Some may think this is too harsh, but I think we have been way too easy and "understanding" , I have no problem with anyone having a drink, just don't get behind the wheel of a vehicle and drive ANYWHERE!!!

[DougCooper]

Fine + full cost of recovery from insurance

Post the fines and the insurance notice. May not help but at least the idiots won't be surprised when their insurance doubles. Speed limit readjustments might help.

...and I would have each park post accident photos (including pictures of the drivers), fines and court costs prominently near the front door of each visitor center.

[JimKindred]

Re: What the heck?

For the fine to get their attention it needs to be in the range of $2000-5000 and 30 days in jail. The problem is that the majority of these monuments are on Federal land. One way around passing a law in congress is to pass a regulation that has the power of law, as is done with the IRS, EPA and BATF. The majority of fines these agencies give are not based on law but regulation.

[CJDaley]

Re: What the heck?

Let's be clear here:

If it's an accident (a deer jumps out in front of them or icy roads), then the insurance companies should handle the whole situation.

If it's actually reckless (DWI or goofing off or speeding), then the fines/jail/community service mentioned above should take place.

Accidents happen and I'm not saying anyone who hits a historic marker should be tarred and feathered, but anyone who is reckless should be! :wink_smil

[Jimmayo]

Re: What the heck?

Looks like the message is that it's not to bad to have an accident on a restricted access road, run over a 100 year old monument and leave. What's the penelty, couple hundred dollars? On the other hand, don't get caught looking at the ground or picking up a fired bullet on the way out. Now that can get you some serious charges.

I think the parks budget cuts have reduced police presence in these areas. In the past the Petersburg NBP had a radar car which was a common fixture on the main road. Havn't seen it around in several years. With the most recent budget cuts I am sure park law enforcement will be one of the first areas to be cut (again).

[82ndIll]

Re: What the heck?

What the heck is going on in Gettysburg? ANOTHER MONUMENT JUST GOT SMASHED BY A CAR!

I was driving into G-burg last night and the local am radio said the 58th NY (German/Polish unit lead by Col. W. Krzyzanowski in the 11th Corps) was hit by a car. This is like the third damned monument to get hit.

I've been driving all over CW battlefields since I got my licence and I've never seen a monument jump out in front of me, I'm beginning to think it's a conspiracy or it's some sort of game people are playing in G-burg.

Personally, I'm a big 11th Corps fan so once I hear of fundraising efforts to fix the monument, I'll most likely lead the charge.

58th's Monument before the crash

PS I would have posted this on the preservation folder, but nobody reads that!

Forgive me for butting in, but this really struck me and saddened me. (As a 50 yr old "newbie" I have little reenacting knowledge to contribute, and most of my questions are answered by research on this and related sites/links/books etc....hence the scarcity of my posts here.)

I have yet to see Gettysburg (a planned visit for the last week of May has been rescheduled for the last week in August...a friend in Baltimore clued me in to the spring appearance of the Brood X Cicadas and I didn't want to run the risk of their presence ruining the trip for my 5 yr old daughter), but try to keep up with what's going on there. I'm a member of the San Diego Civil War Round Table and we try to keep abreast of preservation efforts and information. I will pass this on to our members.

I'm also a member of a fledgling San Diego unit (Co. C, 82nd Illinois), so the 11th Corps is near and dear to my heart as well. If there are any fundraising efforts for this newest monument casualty I would be honored to help contribute.

Thanks for the info and for your time.

Yours, etc.

Steve Gubin
San Diego, CA

[KarinTimour]

Suggested Solutions

Chris:

Thank you for bringing this topic up -- I had no idea that there was this level of reckless driving happening in Gettysburg. And I was struck (as several other people were) by the $25 - $200 fines for destroying priceless memorials.

I agree with people who want to up the fines for destroying monuments/memorials, etc. with cars. Your point about "accidents happen" and that deer do hop out in front of people" is well taken -- but again, if memory serves, the battlefield is "closed" after 11 or so, and there are signs posed to that effect. I"m wondering if an increased fine (and perhaps points on the license) would make drivers more cautious and drive slower, even should a deer leap out in front of them.

Here are some steps that need to be taken so that we have some more information on which to work:

1. Someone needs to call the spokeswoman for the park up and find out how they raise the money to replace the monuments -- is it tax dollars? do the Friends of Gettysburg get tapped? What about the driver of the vehicle and his or her insurance company?

2. Someone who is a Gettysburg resident might should think about calling up the local state representative state senator, etc. and inquire in their willingness to sponsor a state bill to up the fines on this kind of destruction. Money is one thing, and I think a $25 fine must have been set in the 1860s when $25 was worth something. I especially like the idea of adding points to someone's license, as this will DEFINATELY affect their future insurance rates. Being assigned community service cleaning up the park isn't such a bad idea either. I remember several years ago when there was vandalism against several of the Confederate memorials at Vicksburg, when they caught the culprits not only did the judge assign them to community service, he also mandated that they had to attend a certain number of events at the park to learn about what happened at Vicksburg. And two of the guys who did it said that they hadn't realized what the park was about and that the education part really made them realize why what they did was wrong. They were thinking that the memorials were just some kind of civic park furniture -- like park benches, and now they realized what the monuments actually meant. I think something similar should be included -- perhaps having to go on a number of ranger talks or something.

3. Personally, I think this type of a bill has a better chance at getting through the PA legislature than through the Federal Congress. And if we can get it through one state's congress, we can trumpet the accomplishment to other states with battlefields in case they are having similar problems -- though it sounds like Shiloh isn't having anything similar. If the local Adams County legislators are willing to sponsor such legislation, then we need to contact the other PA legislaltors and urge them to get behind it. This is an election year -- and what legislator wouldn't want a nice article in the paper with him or her spouting patriotic statements about protecting our sacred heritage?

4. Now, the natural opponents of any such legislation might be the insurance industry, but it doesn't have to be that way. If we can reach out to them and point out that drivers who are so reckless as to cause blocks of granite to be toppled and wipe out cannon are likely to be poor insurnace risks as well, they might be willing to get behind something like this as well. To give you a for instance, I've got USAA as my car insurance carrier (my father is a Korean war veteran). This is an insurance company that was founded by and for the military and is likely to be interested in the public relations appeal of preserving monuments to veterans from cars.

If someone else can contact the Park service as above and the local Adams county legislators, I'll personally contact USAA and see whether they would be willing to come on board.

4. I don't know if the legislature has recessed to go out and campaign yet. If they have recessed, this can be brought up at campagin rallies. This is a case where one person (yes, I'm talking about you) can call up his or her PA legislator and ask "who is the staffer who is working on protecting Gettysburg monuments against reckless drivers? What is being done about this, there have been three separate incidents since November, and this is costing us as taxpayers tens of thousands of dollars to repair these monuments. We can't afford to have this continuing, we need to put in place stiffer penalties a) higher fines; b) points on the license; c) community service to the park; d) mandated attendance at ranger talks." To say this on the phone won't even last 2 minutes of your time. Then come back and let us know what they said. Or if you know your legislator is coming to speak at the Elks, Kiwanis, etc. in your town, line up to shake their hand and when you've got them by the palm say the above. In these types of situations, trust me, you'll get their attention.

5. Folks, we need to address this wanton desctruction with actions aimed at upping the ante on this kind of behavior.

Who is willing to do any of the above steps?

Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Camp Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[LWhite64]

Re: What the heck?

Well it happens here at Chickamauga on a regular basis, we just had a plaque put back up that was hit several years ago. Thats another thing that is being missed is the cost of repairing the plaques and monuments isnt cheap and that money could be going for other things that we desperately need. Sad situation. Another thing to also note is the purposeful vandalism of monuments, another problem that we face fairly often.


Lee

[Matt Caldwell]

Re: What the heck?

I cannot povide a direct link to the article since I do not subscribe to the papers around here, but on the local news last week, it was mentioned that one of the monuments (either in Dayton or Columbus) was struck by a car. I dont know the specifics as I was walking out the door, but if anyone can find a link to it, I would like to read it.
Thanks,