fake jacket on ebay

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: fake jacket on ebay

Ah, yes, Second Bull Run. My mistake. Also, I don't know why the list skips from Gettysburg to Cold Harbor. There were may engagements in between.

Maybe the guys coloring book didnt list those battles. :tounge_sm

[Gallinipper]

Re: fake jacket on ebay

Another thing. The list of battles seems spurious. Bull Run is listed but the 16th North Carolina DID NOT fight at First Bull Run - it was called the 6th North Carolina in July 1861- redesignated the 16th North Carolina in November 1861. Most CS soldiers referred to that battle as Manassas, not Bull Run.

Not to stray off on a tangent here, but once again the NC regimental designations need to be clarified. The 6th North Carolina DID fight at First Manassas. These would have been the 6th NC State Troops, to differentiate from the volunteer regiments being raised during this time. The 16th NC was designated at this time as the 6th North Carolina VOLUNTEERS, later 16th NCT, and did not see action there. The "Bull Run" noted in the jacket in question likely refers to 2nd Manassas, but you make an excellent point-- the mention of either battle as such would seem to make a strong case for it's bogus nature. Thanks.

Rich Croxton

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: fake jacket on ebay

Thing is original like my backside is made out of strawberry icecream. I have enclosed photos of that dishrag, and the original Zehring coat and its inscription.

[Possum Skinner]

Re: fake jacket on ebay

Now trust me when I say that I also don't much believe the provenance of this jacket, but I'm going to play Devil's advocate for a minute...


Suppose, just suppose, that this would have been battle honors printed into the jacket long after the war by a proud veteran who wanted to preserve his memory for the ages before he left this mortal coil. Say, the early 20th Century before taking it to show his buddies at the UCV reunion.

1. He would have only listed the 16th NC as that would have been what it was when he ended his service. So the jacket didn't participate in all those battles, he did.

2. He would have probably only listed the battles that "HE" participated in, rather than all the ones the regiment participated in.

3. He might have called it Bull Run after the history books started coming out, but I kinda doubt it.

I would have to seriously doubt the verity of this one for lots of reasons, but pointing out the perceived anachronisms is something that is really kind of pointless. There may even be a small chance that this is a real deal...minute...but possible. This piece really needs to be looked at by a serious authority, and then condemned as a fraud or hailed as a great discovery. I, for one, would not bid on it, but I still would like to examine this one more closely rahter than simply making assumptions.

[Gallinipper]

Re: fake jacket on ebay

Thing is original like my backside is made out of strawberry icecream. I have enclosed photos of that dishrag, and the original Gerhig coat and its inscription.

I think you meant Zehring, unless the wearer of that jacket played for the Yankees too (no pun intended) under another name.... :)

Rich Croxton

[Gallo de Cielo]

Re: fake jacket on ebay

My opinion, and it's only that, is that this just doesn't seem legitimate to me.

The overall "mottled" color of the jean just doesn't seem right. When a jacket weathers or ages is tends to do so a little more uniformly, at least on the garments I've looked at first-hand. The lining on this one just seems too clean in comparison as well. Last, although I can't get as clear or as close a look from the images as I'd like, the way the sleeves join on the back view seems funny. The seams don't appear to join in the same spot on both sides.

The battle honors are debatable for sure. The Bull Run/Manassas issue stands out the most. However, the idea that they could have been put in at the war's conclusion, after it, or whenever he was "issued" this specimen is valid. The Dolan Department of Alabama jacket (or McDonald can't recall off the top of my head) in the CS volume of Echoes bears testament to the fact that battle honors were inscribed in a like manner.

Let's also not forget that the failure to list an engagement that that regiment fought in doesn't make it a fraud. Rare would be the soldier who fought in every fight that his regiment participated in. Wounds, illness, detatched duty, fulough, etc kept men out of the ranks.

At any rate, I don't feel it's real but as Garrison illustrates, one never knows...

Regards,

Fred Baker

[TarHeel26NCT]

Re: fake jacket on ebay

It appears that the dudes initials are A.W. and he was in co. A of the 16th NCT. The only A.W. in company A that I could find was Andrew Mitchell Warren and he was wounded in the right hand and foot and captured at Second Manassas. That might explain why Sharpsburg was omitted from the list. This is taken from North Carolina Troops 1861-1865, A Roster, Weymouth T. Jordan, Jr.:
This company from Jackson County enlisted at Webster on 27 April 1861, and was assigned to this regiment as Company A. The company served with this regiment until 5 October 1862, when it transferred to the infantry regiment of Thomas’ Legion and designated Company A of that unit. Later the company was transferred to the 39th Regiment, NC Troops, and designated Company K. The following roster covers only the period 27 April 1861 through 5 October 1862.

Personally I think the jacket is a fake, to me it looks like it came off a movie set.

Charlie Bush

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: fake jacket on ebay

I think you meant Zehring, unless the wearer of that jacket played for the Yankees too (no pun intended) under another name.... :)

Rich Croxton

Gahhh! Your right my bad!

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: fake jacket on ebay

Well some poor cad payed $811.75 for that thing.

[Matt Caldwell]

Re: fake jacket on ebay

Rich,
Not that I am stepping in to back this item, but those buttonholes quite possibly were done by hand. They do make one skeptical, but clothiers during that period did have guides (I believe some type of wire) that were placed over the hole itself and then sewn over, which would give it the appearance of perfection, but were done by hand.

Jim,
Given the fact that a period buttonhole cannot be done correctly with material in between the two horizzontail lines give this one away. Well done buttonholes of the period can run as small as 1/16th or 1/8th dependant upon how good the producer was. However, in order to hand sew a button hole in anyones' book, you must encircle all of the fabric in the button hole slit, thus there would be no fabric in-between the two horizontal lines of stitching.

My personal opinion is that this is a blatent fraud. Perhaps not in the legal sence, but it looks as though this item was intended to deceive. Have a look at the dirt and how conviently it is all encompasing in a pattern as if someone had squashed the jacket and whiped thier azz with it or rubbed it on the ground. The machine stitching is just to obvious for me, and I have had a fair share of looking at machine sewing..lol

A few days ago I had sent a message to the winning bidder (at the time) informing him that it was a fake and his response to it was:
-----Original Message-----
From: GWblitz12@aol.com [mailto:GWblitz12@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 11:56 AM
To: mcaldwell63@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Message from eBay Member

Thank you for the info, is their any other infomation you can give me about this dealer? airblitz"

I assume he got the message

[Alamo Guard]

Re: fake jacket on ebay

Ok my two cents here. If this jacket did come off an estate sale, why wasnt it appraised, and if it was who did appraise it? If it was in fact appraised why would they sell it on EBay? Im sure if this jacket was genuine it would be offered in some other venue?
It just seems strange some one buying authentic Civil War relics would cruise EBay for mega dollar items.
I suppose next they shall be selling General Lees pet chicken that lived under his cot.

[billwatson]

Scams and greed

"Ok my two cents here. If this jacket did come off an estate sale, why wasnt it appraised, and if it was who did appraise it? If it was in fact appraised why would they sell it on EBay? Im sure if this jacket was genuine it would be offered in some other venue?"

Because that's how scams work. You are meant to assume you are smarter than the seller, therefore you have a chance to profit mightily from his lack of smarts in getting it appraised. Note how that theme also supports his lack of authoritative statements that it IS the genuine article -- he's not weaseling to avoid legal problems, HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE'S GOT!!!! QUICK!!! PUT IN A BID!!!!!

Those who get conned are often "guilty" themselves of a bit of greed. The con artist counts on greed distorting your innate wariness. :-)

[DonSmithnotTMD]

Re: fake jacket on ebay

[QUOTE=Matt Caldwell]Jim,
Given the fact that a period buttonhole cannot be done correctly with material in between the two horizzontail lines give this one away. Well done buttonholes of the period can run as small as 1/16th or 1/8th dependant upon how good the producer was. However, in order to hand sew a button hole in anyones' book, you must encircle all of the fabric in the button hole slit, thus there would be no fabric in-between the two horizontal lines of stitching.

Mr. Caldwell,
You lost me on this. Would you be so kind as to start a new thread explaining the process. My only buttonhole class involved sewing around the spot where the hole was going to be and then cutting out the material. It sounds like you're saying something different. It looks like I'm going to be sewing a few more holes soon, so I wanted to be sure.

Oh btw, in my uninformed opinion, teh jacket also looks illogically dirty. What I mean is it seems as if teh dirt was just rubbed on it instead of getting there through wear.

[Matt Caldwell]

Re: fake jacket on ebay

[QUOTE=DonSmithnotTMD]

Jim,
Given the fact that a period buttonhole cannot be done correctly with material in between the two horizzontail lines give this one away. Well done buttonholes of the period can run as small as 1/16th or 1/8th dependant upon how good the producer was. However, in order to hand sew a button hole in anyones' book, you must encircle all of the fabric in the button hole slit, thus there would be no fabric in-between the two horizontal lines of stitching.

Mr. Caldwell,
You lost me on this. Would you be so kind as to start a new thread explaining the process. My only buttonhole class involved sewing around the spot where the hole was going to be and then cutting out the material. It sounds like you're saying something different. It looks like I'm going to be sewing a few more holes soon, so I wanted to be sure.

Oh btw, in my uninformed opinion, teh jacket also looks illogically dirty. What I mean is it seems as if teh dirt was just rubbed on it instead of getting there through wear.

Don,
OK, now that I have lost what I wrote twice thanks to my Vaio, I am going to just give the simple version before I break my keyboard.

See color scan of button hole. It is an original vest from my collection. Note the height from the "pearl" to the top. Very short, and I have seen shorter. This was in reference to the 1/16" I was speaking of.

There were some really good reference items on how to make buttonholes via the search, but I will add one more for your viewing pleasure. It comes from Kannik's Korner, http://www.kannikskorner.com/ . Although before our time period, they offer great patterns, and some, although very complex shirts, could be used in certain circumstances.

In reference to the "binding" issue and how there wouldn’t be any material loose in the holes themselves, I hope the illustrations will explain.

I have included a image of a button I made for a sack coat for Coley Adair for compairison. Also, I have included 2 images of machine sewn button holes. Please note that there are many different types of machine sewn button holes so these are just a few types that I have included. Note where the slit would be made and thus, the material contained within would not be bound.

Hope this helps!

[DonSmithnotTMD]

Re: fake jacket on ebay

OK now I got it -- thanks. Be careful with your computer