Religion-Catholicism??

[Michael Shea]

Re: Religion-Catholicism??

Gents,

Just because a mass is in Latin does not mean it is the old rite that you would have seen in 1860's. Any priest can say the new mass in Latin and many churches today offer this. If you are trying to find a mass as it would have been said in 1860 you need to find a church that does the pre-Vatican II rite (sometimes called Tridentine mass - which dates from 1570). The old mass is very different. The priest faces God (with his back to the people), the responses were said by the deacon or altar servers (not the people) - the people pretty much said nothing. It was very, very different from most Protestant services and would have been viewed with surprise and curiosity by newcomers. In one of John Adams's letters he describes seeing his first mass with all the incense and bells and chanting etc : "Here is everything which can lay hold of the eye, ear, and imagination..." Adams also assumed no one understood any of the Latin.

It is interesting that a Tridentine mass said today will be almost exactly what is was in 1860 - the language, the vestments, the gestures etc. The only difference I can think of is you will not see people saying the rosary during mass (which was common in the past but is now very much frowned upon). It would be the same mass that Father Ryan said for the 8th Tennessee or that Father Corby said at Gettysburg - no de-farbing needed!

Cordially,
Michael Shea

[Campjacksonboy]

Re: Religion-Catholicism??

Michael
What you describe is the way it is here. The priest faces the alter (away from the congregation). There are about 6 servers but I understand that two of these may be deacons. Living in the city old churches are pretty much the norm. My home parish has 5 alters as do many of the churches around here. I was surpised to see at St. Francis De Sales that they also have masses at the side alters during the week. There is a particular order of priests that run this parish. I belive they are called "Institue of Christ the King." I believe that this is the only type of mass this order does even confession is done in Latin although the person confessing speaks english.
The vestments look like the vestments I've seen in museums, slightly different from those worn by most priests.
The women all cover their heads and as you noted the congregation does not say much although there are places where they do. Sometimes depending on whether it is a high or low mass the priest says the prayers silently offering them up for the congregation. They actually use communion rails and there is a cloth that you put your hand under when receiving communion.

The Latin mass is very different from the newer way mass is done. Fortunately the bible readings are read in both Latin and English and the homily was in english.
You will have to forgive me. This is all very different and new to me, I still don't know much of the terminology. Despite being Catholic my whole life, I have only recently been exposed to it I'm still trying to figure out how to follow the mass. The Missals are equally confusing to me but the prayers in translation are very beautiful.

Aside from not understanding the latin yet there is something very special about the mass. The whole experience is like time travel. If any of you Catholic folks are ever in St. Louis I'll extend an open invitation to any of you that would like to see this mass.
Frank Aufmuth

[GermanDraftee]

Re: Religion-Catholicism??

Gents,

If you are trying to find a mass as it would have been said in 1860 you need to find a church that does the pre-Vatican II rite (sometimes called Tridentine mass - which dates from 1570).

It is interesting that a Tridentine mass said today will be almost exactly what is was in 1860 - the language, the vestments, the gestures etc. The only difference I can think of is you will not see people saying the rosary during mass (which was common in the past but is now very much frowned upon). It would be the same mass that Father Ryan said for the 8th Tennessee or that Father Corby said at Gettysburg - no de-farbing needed!

Cordially,
Michael Shea

It is a bit more complicated than that. The Tridentine Mass of the pre-Vatican II 20th Century (that I grew up with) included various liturgical reforms that were instituted over several papacies, beginning with Pius X (1903-1914). Most of the Tridentine masses that I am aware of include, at least, the reforms of Pius X and may include those of Benedict XV and Pius XII, as well.
So, while a Tridentine Mass would be much closer to an 1860s experience, it could easily contain elements that would be anachronistic in the era we reenact.
Respectfully,

[Michael Shea]

Re: Religion-Catholicism??

John,

I thought about these reforms - but as far as I can tell the reforms did not affect the actual language and gestures of the mass. Certainly before Pius X most people would not have received communion - so I guess this is one visible difference. The other changes have to do with calendar stuff, authorizing some different chants and fasting before mass. Can you think of anything that the priest and servers would do or say that would be something different from what a Catholic from 1860 would have experienced?

I find this very interesting with respect to this hobby - sort of like discovering that there is some regiments in the US Army wearing blue jackets, carrying bright Springfields and drilling using Hardee's manual....

cordially,
Michael Shea

[Dennis W. Duerbeck]

Re: Religion-Catholicism??

I too am Catholic and remember the Latin Mass from the 1960's. What I have in my collection, that belonged to my great, grandfather, who lived in Baltimore in the 1860's, is a prayerbook printed in 1868. It is titled, "The Key Of Heaven: or, A Manual Of Prayer ; Newly Revised And Corrected ; New York: D. & J. Sadler & Co., 31 Barclay Street." There are 707 pages of a variety of general prayers ALL in English. There is also a small section titled, " A Manner Of Serving A Priest At Mass". This is in Latin and gives instructions for a clerk and Priest in English language cues, "C' and "P' and instructions. Because there are over 700 pages in this small book, 3 1/2" x 5.0" x 1 1/2", and so many 1860 prayers it is a bit difficult to list them here. If anyone desires I will make a transcript of the contents and what prayers are requested.

I am wondering if somesort of an informational booklet covering period religious items, prayers, the Mass, vestments, etc. may be of interest to reenactors. This is purely a question I am not a dealer or have anything to sell. Let me know your thoughts on this with a PM. Thanks. Dennis W. Duerbeck.

[Spinster]

Re: Religion-Catholicism??

Dennis, there are folks who are interested in a reprint of the The Key of Heaven, and there are wartime and prewar copies available. Rob Carter has done a good bit of work on this project over several years, but laid it aside for lack of numbers. He's right busy now as he moves towards IPW and thence to a summer wedding, but its a project that still needs to be done.

[BishopLynch]

Re: Religion-Catholicism??

For those of you whose knowledge of the Old Mass is hazy and/or you would like to research it more I would suggest The Mass by Fr. Joseph Dunney. It is simple and not too wordy, giving the history of and explanations for each part of the Tridentine Mass. I love it. There are many other great books available which would give you not only a great understanding of the Mass, but an opportunity to enhance your first person knowledge of a mid-19th century Catholic in the reenacting world.

Here is a link to Angelus Press, where you can purchase the book I named above and also many other Traditional Catholic books.

https://www.angeluspress.org

Go to Mass and Liturgy

[ephraim_zook]

Re: Religion-Catholicism??

Unfortunately the hobby lost a good friend and priest in Father Michael Kelly on 31 December. Fr Kelly said Sunday Mass (the old Tridentine Mass) at Cedar Creek for a number of years. Mass was said in Latin, with a deacon who narrated or explained what was happening and why, for the benefit of those who were too young or too forgetful to remember, as well as for those of other religious persuasions who attended. A small choir of ladies sung the responses. He wore pre-V II vestments and dressed in front of the congregation so the narrator could explain the significance of each vestment. It was a wonderful experience to go back to the Mass of my youth. I still have my old Saint Joseph's Daily Missal somewhere, with Latin on the left page and English translation on the right.

Ron Myzie

[GermanDraftee]

Re: Religion-Catholicism??

John,

I thought about these reforms - but as far as I can tell the reforms did not affect the actual language and gestures of the mass. Certainly before Pius X most people would not have received communion - so I guess this is one visible difference. The other changes have to do with calendar stuff, authorizing some different chants and fasting before mass. Can you think of anything that the priest and servers would do or say that would be something different from what a Catholic from 1860 would have experienced?

I find this very interesting with respect to this hobby - sort of like discovering that there is some regiments in the US Army wearing blue jackets, carrying bright Springfields and drilling using Hardee's manual....

cordially,
Michael Shea

Michael,
One element would have been the congregation actually responding (in Latin), acting in dialogue with the priest. The Dialogue Mass was a 20th century development. You would not have heard the congregation participating in the familiar exchanges "Dominus vobiscum et cum spiritu tuo", "Ite missa est Deo gratias", etc.

Singing by the congregation (in the vernacular), while not unknown in earlier centuries, was systematically promoted by the Germans during the 18th & 19th centuries. (The Singmesse)
Outside of the German cultural context, however, I do not believe it was anywhere near as common or popular in the Catholic population of the U.S. until after Pius X.

I am not sure whether one would have found a side-by-side translation into English, or any other language (like the St. Joseph's Missal-and I still have mine, too- as mentioned in Mr. Zook's post). There was a prohibition against translating the Ordinary of the Mass (renewed in 1857 by Pius IX) that was not formally dropped until 1897 (Leo XIII). My uncertainty lies in that I do not know how strictly this prohibition was enforced.

Another difference could be the prayers said at the close of the Mass, particularly the intercessory prayers mandated (but not given specific form) by Leo XIII in the 1880s, and continued into the 20th century.

The biggest possible differences, pre- and post- Pius X, would have been in what the congregation was doing. What the priest-celebrant did and said was very strictly regulated and changed very little. The congregation's role was comparitively non-regulated and change could be easily implemented. This was the thrust of Pius X's Tra le Sollecitudini, "...active participation of the faithful...."

So, some "defarbing" might be necessary.

(For verification of the above, I relied heavily on The Mass of the Roman Rite: Its Origins and Development, Volumes I & II, Joseph A. Jungmann, S.J., 1986, Christian Classics, Westminster, Maryland. It is a replica edition of Fr. Jungmann's 1951 work, Missa Sollemnia, translated from the German by Fr. Francis A. Brunner, C. SS. R.)

With respect,

[MD_Independent]

Re: Religion-Catholicism??

Unfortunately the hobby lost a good friend and priest in Father Michael Kelly on 31 December. Fr Kelly said Sunday Mass (the old Tridentine Mass) at Cedar Creek for a number of years.

That's terrible news. I've only attended Cedar Creek back three times since the late nineties, but only really enjoyed the last one. Father Kelly heard my Confession prior to Mass. Much to my regret, I didn't have time to ask him if there were any references from period accounts to devotions to the Holy Souls. I've read Fr. Schouppe's book Purgatory, written post-war, but research will continue.

I suppose Fr. Kelly's death takes away the only reason I would have had to attend Cedar Creek again. Sad news...

Bill Birney

[JustRob]

Re: Religion-Catholicism??

I'd chime in with some info, but you folks have covered it quite well.

You can find copies of The Golden Key, Garden of the Soul and the Key to Heaven on eBay. Some are later than our period, but so long as the artwork isn't too modern, it would work just fine.