1816 U.S. Musket (Percussion Conversion) Issuance???

[billywebb]

There is an interesting original 1816 .69 cal. musket Remington conversion (rifled?) at a local shop. It has the Maynard tape primer device and a long range rear sight.

Is there a list of regiments somewhere, Union or Confederate, that carried the 1816? I assume issuance would have been in the early part of the war. Any information would be appreciated!

[mdbucktail]

Re: 1816 U.S. Musket (Percussion Conversion) Issuance???

The 13th Pennsylvania Reserves (42d Pa) were issued this musket while at Camp Curtain in the late spring of 1861. The version issued was a .69 caliber
smoothbore. They carried it in their foray to Cumberland, Md and New Creek, Va. in June and early July of that year. Skirmishing with Confederate Cavalry.
When the .58 caliber Springfields, and Enfields, became available the skirmish (flank) companies traded their conversions in for these. Indeed, some of the battleline companies also traded in theirs as well.
Curiously, by the Battle of Gettysburg, a good number of the men still carried smoothbores. Whether they were still the old conversions or 1842's.
The curiosity of it is that the "Bucktails" were used mostly as skirmishers for their brigade.


Resource: "History of the Bucktails". By Thompson and Rausch.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: 1816 U.S. Musket (Percussion Conversion) Issuance???

Many conversions were rifled sighted and issued in North Carolina as ''common rifles''.

I wonder how many Smoothbores in images are actually have a smooth bore?

George Lower in Bigglerville PA once had dozens of 1816 and similar model conversions for sale at any given time.

They are grossly under-represented with North Carolinians today.

I have never seen a CS/NC associated common rifle or smoothbore with the Maynard system.

[mdbucktail]

Re: 1816 U.S. Musket (Percussion Conversion) Issuance???

If I remember correctly.... most if not all were smoothbore's. The Maynard Priming system is a curiosity for this weapon. The ones I have seen all just had the area where the pan used to be filled in and a nipple put in place on the breach. Hmmmm.
The Regimental Quartermaster, in Gettysburg, has an original for sale.
It is just as I have described.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: 1816 U.S. Musket (Percussion Conversion) Issuance???

What is the purpose of a long-range adjustable rear site on a smoothbore? I understand that the rear site was added to muskets that were rifled.

That appears to be the standard for those muskets updated at the US Arsenal
and by Baker in Fayetteville NC.

The ones I have seen all just had the area where the pan used to be filled in and a nipple put in place on the breach.

...just one of several conversion types...and yes many PA regts did carry the .69 smoothbore and all I have had the pleasure to view have no rear adjustable site.

A GREAT contact for this would be David Heiser at Gettysburg. He has a keen interest in PA Regiments (53 PA). Based on what I recall from an old conversation with Mr. Heiser, the 1842 smoothbore musket saw heavy use through Gettysburg.

[billywebb]

Re: 1816 U.S. Musket (Percussion Conversion) Issuance???

I did some browsing on the internet, and apparently this one is the Remington Maynard tape primer lock alteration of a U.S. Model 1816 Musket. The lock is stamped Remington\'s, Illion NY 1857. Between 1855 and 1858 Remington provided 20,000 percussion locks to Frankford Arsenal with the "Maynard tape primer system". Frankford Arsenal then converted 20,000 Model 1816 smoothbore .69 caliber flintlock muskets (made circa 1820-1840) which included converting them from flint to percussion, rifling the barrels and applying long range sights.

Can anybody confirm or add to this?

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: 1816 U.S. Musket (Percussion Conversion) Issuance???

There is an interesting original 1816 .69 cal. musket Remington conversion (rifled?) at a local shop. It has the Maynard tape primer device and a long range rear sight.

Is there a list of regiments somewhere, Union or Confederate, that carried the 1816? I assume issuance would have been in the early part of the war. Any information would be appreciated!

Unfortunately this covers the AoP at Gettysburg only, but it is interesting none the less.

http://dbappdev.com/Acs/gb/qweapons.htm

[Minieball577]

Re: 1816 U.S. Musket (Percussion Conversion) Issuance???

Can anybody confirm or add to this?

Yep, Remington Coversion 1816's had the Maynard tape lock, similar to, but larger than and slightly differnet forward of the bolster than that on the 1855 series. They had a rear sight similar to, but larger than, and graduated differently than that on the 1855 series, and were rifled.

This should be an arm that is a fairly familiar type. It is also illustrated on page 32-33 of the old material culture stand-by, Echoes of Glory, Union.

[BarryDusel]

Re: 1816 U.S. Musket (Percussion Conversion) Issuance???

As Dean alluded earlier. Some of the Pennsylvania Reserve regiments were issued .69 weapons. At least in the 1st Reserves the Rgt. was still carrying them as of June 1863 when the famous photoes were taken at (Fairfax?). Quite clearly these have long range rear sights . As late as March/April 1864 the 1st still had the .69 C. pieces. There is a really great CDV of 4 NCO's of the 1st Reserves and it is defintely taken in March/April 1864. In that CDV they are equipped with .69 C. Springfields/Harpers Ferrys' Conversions. None of the rifles noted, either in the 1863 or 1864 photo have Remington Tape Primers.
There is also a rifle pedigreed to a member of the 1st PA. It is a .69 C. Springfield. With a standard percussion lock and long range rear sites.
So that cuts the 1st out of the mix . In research that I do have. Somewhere amongst my junk. I've got a reference to the Reserve Corps Pennsylvania initially being issued "old conversion muskets". Quite possibly, 1816/1822 Mdls . With that reference. It is probable that at least some of the PRC may have had weapons with remington Conversions.

[Minieball577]

Re: 1816 U.S. Musket (Percussion Conversion) Issuance???

As Dean alluded earlier. Some of the Pennsylvania Reserve regiments were issued .69 weapons. At least in the 1st Reserves the Rgt. was still carrying them as of June 1863 when the famous photoes were taken at (Fairfax?). Quite clearly these have long range rear sights . As late as March/April 1864 the 1st still had the .69 C. pieces. There is a really great CDV of 4 NCO's of the 1st Reserves and it is defintely taken in March/April 1864. In that CDV they are equipped with .69 C. Springfields/Harpers Ferrys' Conversions. None of the rifles noted, either in the 1863 or 1864 photo have Remington Tape Primers.
There is also a rifle pedigreed to a member of the 1st PA. It is a .69 C. Springfield. With a standard percussion lock and long range rear sites.
So that cuts the 1st out of the mix . In research that I do have. Somewhere amongst my junk. I've got a reference to the Reserve Corps Pennsylvania initially being issued "old conversion muskets". Quite possibly, 1816/1822 Mdls . With that reference. It is probable that at least some of the PRC may have had weapons with remington Conversions.

Where can these photos be seen? What you are decribing sure sounds like an 1842 Rifled-Musket. Long Range rear sight, and normal percussion lock. Does the arm in the photos have a bolster? Is the "Long Range Rear Sight" you mention similar to the 1858 leaf sight, or an actualy long range rear sight as on the early 1855 Rifle-muskets? What does the upper band look like?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: 1816 U.S. Musket (Percussion Conversion) Issuance???

Hallo Kameraden!

Similar alterations were made to some of the M1822 and M1842's. From an article of mine, for a brief clarification on "rifled-muskets" and "rifled and sighted muskets":

"Rifled-Muskets: Extended Life

During the short years before the official adoption of the new .58 caliber “rifle-musket” in 1855, there had been extensive attempts at modernizing existing firearms with rifled bores. With the July 1855 decision that all future made martial arms would be made rifled, attention was given to look for the possibility of rifling existing smoothbore arms as well.

In 1855, efforts began at Springfield and Harper’s Ferry to rifle and add long-range rear sights to the smoothbore muskets. Consideration would be given to alter the current Model 1842 Percussion Muskets, as well as inventories of Model 1822’s.

Between 1856 and 1859, the national armories altered a total of 14,182 Model 1842 muskets, 4,363 being rifled only. In addition, 9,126 “bright” and “browned” percussion muskets of “earlier patterns” were also altered (M1822's).

Two basic methods were used:

The Third Type Alteration, brought about by the decision after 1855 to modernize flintlock conversions by rifling and adding sights to use the .69 elongated ball or .69 “Minie” ball. The build up of gas pressure behind the Minie called for a stronger breech. Using this method, after altering the lock as above, the breech of the barrel was cut off, and an entirely new breech section was added having a forged bolster as an integral part. A percussion hammer was added.

The “Mechanical Primer.” These were the most elaborate conversions produced under contract for the government by a number of inventors. In 1845 a dental surgeon named Edward Maynard had patented one such mechanical tape priming mechanism which was tested in a 300 arms in 1848. The government eventually bought the rights in 1853 and in 1854 gave a contract to E. Remington & Son to add the Maynard tape primer principle to 20,000 M1816 Types II and III (which ended up including a few M1842 muskets as well. The “Remington Conversion” added an oversized M1855 style Maynard lock to a rifled and sighted M1822, and redesigned the bayonet, between 1855 and 1858. 13"

And, as stated, a similar thing was done with some of the M1822's (M1816 Types II and III's...). And there are others such as the Butterfield Pellet system and Mayanrd work done by Nippes.

The "long range rear" sight is a fold down ladder inside of a "roller coaster" sidewalled base- similar (larger) than that used on the early M1855 rifles and rifle-muskets, and later M1841 alterations.

The upper band was the "double loop" ("Charleville" style) found on the M1822 or M1842. The work did not affect the barrel bands in any event.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Minieball577]

Re: 1816 U.S. Musket (Percussion Conversion) Issuance???

Hallo Kameraden!

The upper band was the "double loop" ("Charleville" style) found on the M1822 or M1842. The work did not affect the barrel bands in any event.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

The 1822 and 1842 (and 1835/40's for that matter) have different top bands. This is a method by which they can be identified in photographs. In addition, in many cases, the work affected the shape and size of the front sight on the front band, and in many alterations of 1816/22's which strap the sight was located on. THis is why I asked what the top band looked like.

[BarryDusel]

Re: 1816 U.S. Musket (Percussion Conversion) Issuance???

Chris,
All of the photos in question are at Carlisle Barracks in the Mollus Collection.
As to the rifles. These are definite Mdl 1842's .

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: 1816 U.S. Musket (Percussion Conversion) Issuance???

Curt-Heinrich,
I was hoping you would wade in here.

There are muskets with flint mechanisms converted to precussion muskets.
There are flint-to-percussion SMOOTHBORE muskets that were then RIFLED.
There are production SMOOTHBORE percussion models, ie the US 1842.
There are production SMOOTHBORE percussion models that were RIFLED.

The end result of all four of these was simply refered to as the common rifle and issued as such in NC and all had the adjustable rear site.

Curt, were there smoothbores rifled with no rear site added? Were there smoothbores with rear adjustable sites? (I have seen simple -v- rear sites but not on any issued in America.)

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: 1816 U.S. Musket (Percussion Conversion) Issuance???

Hallo Kameraden!

Thanks, Herr Chris! Rereading my post, I can see where I was not clear.
The upper bands are diferetn on the M1816/22, and the M1835/40 and M1842. That is why I said "Charleville" STYLE on the M1822 OR M1842 rather than saying M1822 and M1842 which would read as being the same. Thanks for showing the need for clarification.

And yes, the way I read the question, did not mention the front sight change as a band change. The brass elliptical front sights on rifled-muskets were often replaced with blades, or cones, or "pinched" replacements.

The "quickie" way to tell the difference is that the M1822 had a horizontal, parallel to the barrel, edge between the double loops, and the M1835/40 and M1842 had a "scooped out" portion after the first loop.

Herr Garrison:

"Curt, were there smoothbores rifled with no rear site added?"

To the best of my reading, questioning, and experience- not that I have ever come across. I have seen some though, sights on a smoothbore- but I believe them to be "Bannerman" type post-War recycles as "poorman's shotguns" by having the thin rifling bored out. I have not been fully comfortable with that, physically or mentally, as it makes for a very thin barrel wall... ;-)

"Were there smoothbores with rear adjustable sites?"

Yes, off the top of my head, for example, the "Ward" tape primer conversions that included a two leaf rear sight, and conical front sight, but the bore remained smooth. My thinking here is that there was a period "appreciation," perhaps (going back to the F & I War in a limited way) that an aimed smoothbore might be more effective than one just shouldered, leveled, and held parallel to the ground (when not opposed and opposite to a "wall" of massed men some 40 to 60 yards away).

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt