Persimmon seed button ?

[BorderRuffian]

Hello,

I have used the search feature and have been unable to come up with an answer on this so I thought I would post here.I have been trying to sharpen my sewing skills by making relatively simple projects like poke sacks and such,my current project is sewing a housewife out of scraps.Is there any documentation for using seeds for buttons?I thought maybe I would use a persimmon seed to illustrate a "field repair".

Thanks,

Forrest Peterson

[RockCityGuard]

Re: Persimmon seed button ?

Wow.....Ode to the old Forum... There was a thread "once upon a time" about using persimmon seeds for buttons. I went and collected some, but I guess the persimmons in the Middle Tenn area are just not large enough. I know that period buttons were much smaller than we tend to use on shirts, but these were tiny.

There is a refrence to them in a fictional children's book series, Hannalee Books by Patricia Beatty that are based in the Civil War and talk about persimmon buttons.

I'm sure just about anything was used as 'field repair' from hand carved lead to wood and I even found refrence to using thorns. Many families all the way back to Colonial times through the mid-1800's possesed a shell drill that they used on fresh and salt water clams for mother of pearl buttons.

Richard (Russ) Russell
Co. A 1st Tenn Inf CSA
Rock City Guards

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Persimmon seed button ?

Perhaps the choice of a common button can be found here...if for a shirt placket or cuff. The use of organic material is touched upon.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2322&highlight=ceramic

...or perhaps...

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2457&highlight=ceramic

These man-made buttons were plentiful, one could easily be found, borrowed or pinched around any camp.

I think an empty space in a row of buttons would better illustrate a soldier in the midst of a campaign.

[KittyK]

Re: Persimmon seed button ?

Forrest,

You might try the archived thread over at another board,

http://www.cwreenactors.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=4201&forum=civilian

Persimmon seed buttons are mentioned in Ersatz in the Confederacy by Mary Elizabeth Massey, and in A Woman's War: Southern Women, Civil War, and the Confederate Legacy by the Museum of the Confederacy (page 12). Finally, I don't have it right at my fingertips, and it's not something you'd usually think of as a research source, but I think persimmon buttons might have been mentioned in the Amanda paper doll series put out by Texas Tech, which are really thoroughly researched.

If you don't want to go with persimmons, what about some other materials? Resources of the Southern Fields and Forests, Medical, Economical, and Agricultural by Francis Peyre Porcher mentions making button molds out of the dried shell of the fruit of gourds (Cucurbita lagenaria) (p.65). Porcher also mentions soapberry (Sapindus spp.) seeds used for buttons as well, that were apparently imported from the West Indies to England and manufactured there (p.84-85).

Sincerely,
Katharine

[BorderRuffian]

Re: Persimmon seed button ?

All,
Thanks for the input.I wanted to try to get some documentation for the usage first.I have found myself "lurking and learning" more than posting since I joined this site.I will try more search variations first before I post to ask for help.In the several months I have been perusing the forums I have seen a lot of the same topics coming up over and over again.

Thanks again,

Forrest Peterson

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Persimmon seed button ?

Russ,

I went and collected some, but I guess the persimmons in the Middle Tenn area are just not large enough. I know that period buttons were much smaller than we tend to use on shirts, but these were tiny.

There are several varieties of Persimmon with the domectic speciman having smaller seeds. I think it is the Chinese variety that has more of a pit than a seed...but I could be wrong.


Forrest,

...I will try more search variations first before I post to ask for help.

It's a good question and you got good help.

[billwatson]

Re: Persimmon seed button ?

I just wanted to bring up one variation on this persimmon seed thing. You can use a persimmon seed or anything else the right size for a button without drilling a hole in it simply by covering it with a piece of cloth, sewn in the back. The cloth with the button inside is then sewn to the garment as a button, with the gathered cloth in the back serving as the anchor point. Cloth-covered buttons are not unusual in civilian life and the idea as a practical means to an end rather than a fashion statement (cloth buttons often complemented or matched a lady's dress) would not have been lost on a hard-pressed soldier who had seeds, cloth, needle and thread and, presumably, an urgent need for a button. Or, instead of seeds: small flat stones, pieces of wood, etc.

A certain type of mind thrives on projects like this, epecially during the boredom of camps. There were some of us on the Andersonville movie who dealt with the boredom of pretty much being in a prisoner of war camp waiting for camera shots to be set up by producing a variety of goods out of the pieces of junk we had at our disposal. I came out of it with a haversack made out of blanket, with a couple of pieces of carved wood for buttons, and three carved sticks, one a big one I needed for walking and two that were "props" carved to be billy clubs for the scene where the Raiders are hanged. We also produced a very large flag, whimsically marked "Balloon Corps," with a picture of an aerial balloon sewn into it. All this from boredom, which I assume they had even more of than we did. When time is in great supply, all kinds of seemingly unlikely projects become more attractive as a means of filling it. Just an observation from experimental archaeology, backed by the copious amounts of carved and otherwise decorated objects produced by soldiers in camp and in prison that have survived (don't know of any cloth-covered buttons that made it,though. :-) )

[RockCityGuard]

Re: Persimmon seed button ?

I just wanted to bring up one variation on this persimmon seed thing. You can use a persimmon seed or anything else the right size for a button without drilling a hole in it simply by covering it with a piece of cloth, sewn in the back. The cloth with the button inside is then sewn to the garment as a button, with the gathered cloth in the back serving as the anchor point.

Thanks Bill... I've been looking into cloth covered buttons and never gave thought to using a simple seed (even though I had the blasted things in my hand!). I could certainly see them doing this.

[Virginia Mescher]

Re: Persimmon seed button ?

I just wanted to bring up one variation on this persimmon seed thing. You can use a persimmon seed or anything else the right size for a button without drilling a hole in it simply by covering it with a piece of cloth, sewn in the back. The cloth with the button inside is then sewn to the garment as a button, with the gathered cloth in the back serving as the anchor point. Cloth-covered buttons are not unusual in civilian life and the idea as a practical means to an end rather than a fashion statement (cloth buttons often complemented or matched a lady's dress) would not have been lost on a hard-pressed soldier who had seeds, cloth, needle and thread and, presumably, an urgent need for a button. Or, instead of seeds: small flat stones, pieces of wood, etc.

I don't have documentation on cloth covered persimmon buttons but the Musuem of the Confederacy has examples of persimmon seed buttons with two holes in the middle. Mike made me some persimmon seed buttons for a turned dress and just drilled holes in the the cleaned and dried seed.

Parthenia Hauge wrote of buttons made from pine bark, pieces of gourds, pasteboard (those buttons could not be washed unless removed from the garment) and persimmon seeds. Other people mentioned wood buttons, either covered with cloth or left bare, and even cloth buttons. One quote mentioned that persimmon seed buttons were superior and could withstand the stress of the battling board (scrub board or a board used to beat the clothes clean). There were many other references to persimmon seed buttons in post war accounts of Confederate makeshifts and all referred to holes in the seed itself.