Black Powder vs. Gun Powder

[Rear Guard]

I was recently asked by a student: "what was the difference between black powder and today's gun powder?" I had to admit that I didn't know. Later, a little research gave me the formula for black powder which is 75% Potassium Nitrate, 15% Charcoal, and 10% Sulfur, but I still haven't found a formula for gun powder. Does anyone know what the difference is?
Also, I have read of how the South used urine to help produce "niter" for gun powder, but don't understand how that process actually worked. Anyone know?

Jeff Lawson

[poncho]

Re: Black Powder vs. Gun Powder

Jeff,
I can't say for sure what the difference is but I remember seeing a program mentioning the difference. One of the things I remember was that modern gunpowder contains a cellulose compound, which I'm guessing is synthetic. I'm sure others who are more educated in this field than I am will chime in but hopefully this is a start.

[Vuhginyuh]

Niter happens...

Nitrate of Potassa or Niter is the natural equivalent of artificially derived saltpeter.

In 1860, 15% of all American niter came from natural deposits near Nashville with deposits in caves in Kentucky and small but very pure deposits in Bradford Co, PA.

Artificial niter or saltpeter is made from the mixing ash, lime and composted animal and certain vegetable waste which has high potassium content. It was spread to let moisture evaporate into a crystalline mush and then compounded.

The composted materials were called saline soil or saline earth. Privies, out-houses, stock yards and tobacco processing sites were excellent sources of high potassium raw materials for manufacturing saline earth . These waste elements must contain high amounts of Nitrogen and ureic acid. Human waste contains both.

It is my understanding that better cartridge paper lints had been treated with a saltpeter solution before felting.

Most of the waste used to produce the world's saltpeter was imported form Calcutta but New York, Boston and DC were grand ''repositories''. Any urban environment could provide the needed element.

[1st Maine Trooper]

Re: Black Powder vs. Gun Powder

I was recently asked by a student: "what was the difference between black powder and today's gun powder?" I had to admit that I didn't know. Later, a little research gave me the formula for black powder which is 75% Potassium Nitrate, 15% Charcoal, and 10% Sulfur, but I still haven't found a formula for gun powder. Does anyone know what the difference is?
Also, I have read of how the South used urine to help produce "niter" for gun powder, but don't understand how that process actually worked. Anyone know?

Jeff Lawson

Cordite, one variant of smokeless powder is made from 65% gun cotton, 30 nitro-glycerin and 5% mineral jelly. There are many variations on the exact composition and proportions of compents that lead to various formulations of modern smokeless powders. Smokeless powders are also inherantly waterproof.
The south did not have exculsivity on using urine to make miter. Urine when processed into urea, among other things consists of nitrogen. It can then be mixed with potassium to produce the required potassium nitrate for black powder.

Hope this helps somewhat.

Dave Myrick

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Black Powder vs. Gun Powder

Hallo Kameraden!

In brief....

"Nitro-cellulose" or "smokeless gunpowder" came about after the development of making celluloid roughyl in the 1870's. By adding Nitric Acid to celluloid, (the had already added it to cotton to make gun cotton), and mixing it with alcohol and ether- it formed a gelatinous goo which was then rolled into sheets, dried, and cut to granular shapes or size.
The original advantage was that it was great for controlling the burn rate as a propellent. By forming it into three shapes "ball," "flake," and "stick" granules it could be used for different applications. (If you see a modern military ammo can, it will say "Ball" along with the caliber..

Black powder burns slowly, giving a "push" to a projectile down the barrel.
Smokeless powder burns quickly, giving an initial "kick" to the projectile at the breech.

And, I am really fond of modern government definitions. Black powder is an explosive. Smokeless powder is a propellant. ;-)

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Alchemist Mess

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Black Powder vs. Gun Powder

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt wrote;

(the had already added it to cotton to make gun cotton)

It is my understanding that better cartridge paper pulps had been treated with saltpeter before felting.

[Rear Guard]

Re: Black Powder vs. Gun Powder

Thanks to all for the lesson.....though I'm not sure the kid is gonna understand any of this if and when I see him next!

Jeff Lawson

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Black Powder vs. Gun Powder

Hallo Kamerad!

Tis easy...

Blackpowder: smokey, dirty, corrosive.
Smokeless powder: not so smokey, not so dirty, not so corrosive.

;-)

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[ephraim_zook]

Re: Black Powder vs. Gun Powder

All this while I thought that "ball" referred to the projectile, to differentiate from Shot, Tracer, Blank, whatever, and marvelled that they were still called balls after all these years. Thanks for disabusing me of this idea! :thinking:

regards
Ron Myzie

Hallo Kameraden!

In brief....

"Nitro-cellulose" or "smokeless gunpowder" came about after the development of making celluloid roughyl in the 1870's. By adding Nitric Acid to celluloid, (the had already added it to cotton to make gun cotton), and mixing it with alcohol and ether- it formed a gelatinous goo which was then rolled into sheets, dried, and cut to granular shapes or size.
The original advantage was that it was great for controlling the burn rate as a propellent. By forming it into three shapes "ball," "flake," and "stick" granules it could be used for different applications. (If you see a modern military ammo can, it will say "Ball" along with the caliber..

Black powder burns slowly, giving a "push" to a projectile down the barrel.
Smokeless powder burns quickly, giving an initial "kick" to the projectile at the breech.

And, I am really fond of modern government definitions. Black powder is an explosive. Smokeless powder is a propellant. ;-)

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Alchemist Mess

[sundogqhs]

Re: Black Powder vs. Gun Powder

You were correct.

The ball in military ball ammo refers to the projectile itself, not the type of powder used in the cartridge. The reason that this is listed on the ammo cans is so the soldier can see what type of ammo is being issued. The type of powder used to send the projectile on it's merry way is of no concern.

Most modern powders now used by the military are what is call stick type, although there is some .50 cal that has the old Hodgden 870 ball type powder still in the inventory.

SSG Mark Norman
Team Able Master Gunner
TF Red Horse

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Black Powder vs. Gun Powder

Hallo Kameraden!

Thanks for the modern update, my mind was somewhere else (Bronze Age actually). Sorry.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Michael McComas]

Re: Black Powder vs. Gun Powder

The short answer is, modern powders get their 'kick' from nitric acid and sulfuric acid, which react explosively when combined. Tell them that smokeless powder is the same reaction as nitroglycerine, and they'll get it.

Most modern smokeless powders are what is called "double base", meaning they contain nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine as their primary components, along with dyes, coatings, and other ingredients to finely control their burn characteristics. These vary widely depending on the formula and and form (ball, flake, stick), so a 'safe quantity' of one powder may be a fatal overloading with another. Never ever use smokeless in a black powder arm.

To quickly address a few other points, the nitroglycerine makes smokeless less hygroscopic than black powder, but it is by no means waterproof. That is why military ammo is sealed against moisture. If you look around the primer pocket, there is usually a sealant painted on.

Lastly, cordite (so named because it came in long brown sticks which were bundled like cord wood in a cartridge) is now pretty much obsolete as a propellant. The British had a brief flirtation with it when they adopted the "smallbore" .303 cartridge, but they found that cordite burned much too hot for the barrel materials they were using, leading to a serious problem with erosion of the rifling and chamber, so they changed to a double base powder called 3031 (.303 formula 1) which burned a little cooler and which is still around to this day.

[Spinster]

Re: Black Powder vs. Gun Powder

Also, I have read of how the South used urine to help produce "niter" for gun powder, but don't understand how that process actually worked. Anyone know?

Jeff Lawson

John Harrelson's production method, in the area of Selma, Alabama, consisted of sending wagons around town on a regular schedule to collect urine. The barrels were taken to the edge of town, and poured out over straw. Niter crystals formed on the straw, and were then used in gunpowder production.

I still occassionally hear the phrase used by very elderly ladies in the Deep South who are retiring to the ladies room "Excuse me please dear, I'm off to shoot a yankee" :wink_smil

[Wild Rover]

Re: Black Powder vs. Gun Powder

Well,
The composition/Percent of mixture is different for all or most smokeless powders. I handload all my center fire guns, from the .45 to several large rifles.

The pressure of smokeless power is far above 2 or 3 F Black powder, and some are made to burn hard and fast (Titegroup/Red Dot) for target ammunition, to 296 (for heavy pistol Hunting/Personal Defense loads) to various slow burning rifle powder for Dangerous game.

As a side note there are Ball Powders, which refer to the shape of the grains.

Whether with Black Powder or Smokeless, the most dangerous of all is the primers for either.

With Modern Powder and bullets, one can get 45/70 energy out of a .45 LC Revolver, it is not much fun to hang on to, but does quite a job downrange!

I guess in the end, the main difference is the base and the MUCH higher pressures and burn rate.

As a side note, anyone who handloads realizes the difference a few grains of powder, or bullet seating can make on the point of impact on any round. I imagine this made a big contribution to the lack of accuracy seen on most battlefields.

Pards,