"Cold Mountain" film review

[SCTiger]

Re: "Cold Mountain" film review

I suprised that this thread came back, but it is appropriate as the 140th Anniversary of the battle is in two days. In the August 2004 edition of the "Civil War Times", Noah Andre Trudeau accuses the Confederates of
"racial genocide" (Page 32). Genocide is a strong 20th Century word used to describe the systematic elimination of a race or ethnic group. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Confederates were defending their lines after a 4:44 am attack which killed up to 270 of their comrades. The Confederates also took over 500 black prisoners that day. How can he classify warfare between two armies as "genocide"? Trudeau was using the battle to inject his 21st century views on race relations, his research was very weak.

Trudeau also misinforms again with the assertion that General Mahone "wrongly informed his men that the black soldiers were giving no quarter." Another statement of propoganda. The blacks in Ferrero's Divsion were screaming "No Quarter" and "Remember Fort Pillow" as they assaulted the crater, however; the Union Troops did receive quarter from the Confederates. Having a huge mass of disorganized men fighting with no effective leadership, didn't help matters either. The Union commanders had little or no control over their troops.

If the new age thinking defines battlefield casualties as "genocide", then the greatest genocide happened in South Carolina and Georgia, during General Sherman's infamous march. The war killed over 23% of the white male population in SC. I would to love to see Mr. Trudeau include those "facts" in his next book. This will be the last issue of the CWT I will ever buy.

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Re: Black Troops at the Crater

Well, Mr. Deese, I think genocide is a bit much but the Confederates who actually participated in the battle make nearly no apologies for their angered attack on July 30, 1864.

From Trudeau's book "The Last Citadel" (and the best volume to date on the Petersburg Campaign) On pages 122-123 he quotes some men who were there.

"Most of the fighting was done with bayonets and butts of muskets." A N.C. soldier

"How the negroe's skulls cracked with the blows." N.C. soldier

"I saw the rebs run up and shoot negro prisoners in front of me[.] One was shot four times." Stephen Weld, a captured Union officer.

Josiah Cutchin, a soldier in the 16th Virginia Infantry wrote to his "Cousin Jennie" and I quote only portions of his letter of August 7, 1864 [Ed. note- All spelling errors are his not mine.]:

"about 8 oclock in the morning a part of our division Wrights Georgia Brigade Sanders Alabama and Mahones Virginia Brigades under the command of Gene Mahone was ordered down there. we arrived there about 9 oclock and was formed in line of Battle and ordered to charge. The Boys gave a yell and went forward. we did not fire untill [sic] about six feet from the Breast works. the yankees had two lines in them one of White yankees and one of negroes and we just slaughtered them. our men and the yankees was all in the trenches together fighting as hard as they could with the Bayonets and the buts of their guns. "

He goes on to state: "you may know that by number of killed and wounded that it was a Hot place. but we slowed the yankees and negroes. it is the first time that our Brigade has ever met with any negro troops and we just used them up."

Then he goes on writing about how he hasn't had a watermelon since 1861 and would love to fish.

In Ervin L. Jordan's "Black Confederates and Afro-Yankees" he cites incidents from the Crater. Pages 276-278 cites incidents some of which I will relay here.

The Richmond Enquirer on August 1, 1864, had this to say in the aftermath criticizing Mahone for ordering the ruthless attacks to cease: "We regret to learn [that] some negroes were captured instead of being shot...go forward...until every negro is slaughtered...butcher every negro that Grant hurls against [our] brave troops and permit them not to soil their hands with the capture of one negro."

John Wise said that the Southerners had committed a "relentless vengance...disregard[ing] the rules of warfare which retrained them in battle with their own race."

A recent article came out in the Southern Historian magazine Spring 2004 Volume XXV written by Kevin M. Levin. For decades after the battle former USCT soldiers were denied invitation or requests for participating in Crater reunions. Only white Southerners and white Northerners could come.

Some quotes from that article about the troops at the Crater:

"Our men killed them [black troops] with the bayonets and the buts of there [sic] guns and every other way [,] until they were lying eight or ten deep on top of one enuther [sic] and the blood almost s[h]oe quarter deep." Labnan Odom wrote the aforementioned to his wife on August 1, 1864, 48th Georgia Infantry.

"[T]he Bayonet was plunged through their hearts & the muzzle of our guns was put on their temple & their brains blown out others were knocked in the head with butts of our guns. Few would succeed in getting to the rear safe." James Paul Vedery to his sister on July 31, 1864, 48th Georgia Infantry


I will get a casualty listing of killed, wounded, and missing tomorrow up here.

There is most certainly an element to the battle that is missing from most conversations about the black troops and the Crater and one is once the Confederates let their rage be known, white troops and officers turned on black troops.

Working at the battlefield, I thought when I first started "Well, the attack was bad; but I like Mahone and his brigade and division, what to do?" Well, the truth of the matter is the Confederate troops unleash a full fledged attack on Ferrero's Division. I still like Mahone, his brigade, his division; but it wasn't a genocide per se but definitely a focused, hate-filled, vengeful attack on the United States Colored Troops. So in my tours, you will get the whole story. The stabbing, shooting a point blank range, spearing like fish (as one Confederate said), the Union white troops and officers who turn on their sable comrades. However, the truth of the matter is I've only read of a small few men who ever thought "Maybe they/we shouldn't have done that; it was a bit much." The overall opinion of Confederate troops on and for decades after July 30th is "Black men are not capable of being soldiers and we showed those Yankees just how foolish they were for putting them in front of us."

[SCTiger]

Re: "Cold Mountain" film review

Mr. Dabney

True the Confederates had no lost love for the negro troops, nor did they have any love for the Union troops that besieged the city. For weeks the Confederates had to duck and run from relentless Artillery and Sharpshooter fire, then comes the explosion. So at that point, I don't think they would have rolled out the welcome mat. If the Ferrero's troops had slain every Confederate soldier (which would have happened), I am sure it would have been a celebrated part of American history today.

So with the Ferrero's troops screaming "No quarter!", what were they supposed to do? Of course being blown out of your bunk at 4:44 am may have had something to do with it. This could have been one of the reasons the Confedrates fought so hard against them. As for the invitation to reunions, I don't think Petersburg was the only reunion where black, Union soldiers went unrecognized. When it comes to newspaper quotes, I really don't believe that spoke for every CSA soldier.

Mr. Trudeau's article was political, his use of the word "genocide" proves this.
Not every Johnny Reb a with gun was out to eliminate the black race. Most had lived with blacks all of their lives and in close proximity. I can pick and choose any select set of facts or quotations to make a point. I am looking at the language the author used. I want to know how does a surrounded army commit "genocide" on soldiers who volunteered to serve with the Union and then launched a suprise attack?

There is most certainly an element to the battle that is missing from most conversations about the black troops and the Crater and one is once the Confederates let their rage be known, white troops and officers turned on black troops.

I am glad that you admitted to the white Union officers turning on their own soldiers, another fact that has been too often left out.

Did the Confederates hate black troops? Mostly certainly and they had their 19th century reasons. Were USCT taken as prisoners? Yes they were. Was genocide committed on July 30th, 1864? If so, it went both ways. It wasn't a polite war from anyone's point of view.

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Re: "Cold Mountain" film review

Mr. Deese,

That artillery and sharpshooter fire was a two way street as I am sure you and many others know.

Personally, I think a lot has been made about the mining operations being a secret operation. It was not. Brigadier General Edward Porter Alexander knew just five days after the mining operations commenced that the Union troops were mining underneath Elliott's Salient. He planned artillery positions and increased firepower of the artillery on either side of Elliott's Salient. It was his placement of that artillery that greatly aided the Confederates in their counterattacks. The Confederate engineers also countermine and sink listening shafts. Through radar detection we have been able to find that one of these countermines comes within six (6) inches of the Union mine shaft. And on August 6, 1864, the Confederates detonated their own small mine in front of Colquitt's Salient. The only issue of consequence from that was the killing of Colonel Stedman for which Union Fort Stedman is named and the Confederates would attempt that position on March 25, 1865; but that's getting on to another battle, another time.

So far as if Ferrero goes in and relentlessly attacks Confederates and celebrated history; that I don't know and I'm not willing to say it would be.

Again, I'm not saying it's genocide, yes the Confederate took prisoners; but there were a whole heck of a lot more dead and wounded than just stray prisoners.

A lot has been made of the "Siege of Petersburg" when in truth it is merely a semi-static campaign with siege operations/tactics & weapons. Lee is never completely surrounded or else he wouldn't have been able to get supplies into the cities of Petersburg and Richmond nor would he have had avenues of escape on the evening of April 2, 1865 and into the early morning hours of April 3, 1865. A true military siege is more reflected in Vicksburg and Port Hudson but those are sidenotes to the original intent of these postings.

In relationship with newspapers, it is true they don't reflect the average citizen, but taking in the newspaper with what the soldiers were saying, it's quite obvious a large sum of Army of Northern Virginia soldiers agreed with the Richmond Enquirer on that issue. Kill 'em, kill 'em, kill 'em. The thought is most certainly prevalent in the ranks of the USCTs. Three words from another primary source of which has been repeated time and time again and so I don't believe the man's name is necessary "War is hell."

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: "Cold Mountain" film review

I watched the flick on DVD recently and was not all that pleased. Material culture aspects are above average, as noted by many others (Although I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned Bubba-Badguy's leather slouch hat!). However, that is not what bothered me...

I was bugged by what appeared to me to be non-1860's portrayals of sex and violence. The scenes that come to mind are the white-trash orgy scene and the brutal torture of the woman while she watches her husband and son be murdered.

Also, I was surprised that Inman only receiving 3 letters from his sweety in 4 years away from home. If this is typical, then...
1) how the heck do we have all these correspondences to read in 2004?
2) why did soldiers look forward to mail call? They must have been masochists!
3) how'd they keep ANYONE from deserting? No word from home in YEARS!!!

Are such things documented in the historical record?
If not, were they probable or likely to have occurred?

They seem quite far-fetched, to me. Was there really such a market in the south in 1864 for the return of deserters that a man would prostitute his wife and family? Could so-called "Home Guard" really terrorize an entire county for 4+ years without the intervention of the govenor, troops home on furlough, or even the local populace? How could any government keep a citizen-military in the field with little or no word from home for YEARS?

For me, it was an implausible story with better costumes than we're used to seeing. It just ain't Hollywood without a little gratuitous sex & violence and a two-dimensional villain!!

Anyone else ponder these points?

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Re: "Cold Mountain" film review

John,

I was quite curious of the ladies of the evening working in conjunction with the Home Guard. That seems to be a BIG stretch to me, no matter their class.

I do know that one of my friends found references to the Home Guard slamming women's thumbs/fingers to get them to tell on deserters.

I agree, if she wrote hundreds of letters, why did nearly none of them get to him? Someone eat them along the way? LOL!

Another thing that bothered me was just the mere character plot which I'm sure was based on the book; but why was this upper crust young woman so tired of "Cotton and slaves" yeah I bet that's what the average Charlestonian upper crust woman was thinking. "I'm so TIRED of having people wait on me hand and foot. I sure do wish there were no slaves." Give me a break. Though I shold accept certainly Hollywood can't have a protagonist slaveowning minister, because God forbid [pun not intended] that we portray Southern men of the church as many were." And it would certainly tarnish Nicole Kidman's 21st century person. Oh well! I can't say I was that impressed with the clothing or much of anything. There was one county in Virginia in 1860 that didn't have ANY black persons and that was McDowell County (not McDowell town in Highland County). However, because of location shooting blacks were missing from not only the Battle of the Crater but missing from the home front, excepting that one like GWTW looking scene of blacks in traditional cotton field. If this is mountains of NC, I'd be QUITE curious as to how much cotton those people are raising. Ah, stereotypes, I love 'em!

I was initially curious about the name "Inman" being appropriate for the 19th century and then while doing genealogy for a particular family I found an "Inman" so I guess that wasn't an embellishment as I first thought.

[Matthew.Rector]

Re: "Cold Mountain" film review

Are such things documented in the historical record?
If not, were they probable or likely to have occurred?

They seem quite far-fetched, to me. Was there really such a market in the south in 1864 for the return of deserters that a man would prostitute his wife and family? Could so-called "Home Guard" really terrorize an entire county for 4+ years without the intervention of the govenor, troops home on furlough, or even the local populace? How could any government keep a citizen-military in the field with little or no word from home for YEARS?

I think much of this were incidents taken from the book with alot of Hollywood thrown in it. Not everything that occured in the fictional novel happened the same way in the movie either.

Personally, without picking it apart, I really didn't think the movie was all that horrible. That's just me though. I know some love to get into the details...or lack of with these period films. That is when I just hop over to the AC forum to read what I tried not to pay attention to or missed. It can be hard at times though.

[NC5thCav]

Re: "Cold Mountain" film review

As far as the Home guard crushing the womans thumbs, there are documented occurances of that being done. The real captain Teage that the movie carachter is based on did this trying to force a family to give up their hidden silver. The Home Guard in the NC mountains was also very active. The area, bieng adjacent to eastern TN, had MANY problems with Unionists, bushwhackers, and Federal raids. Many in the area didn't care that much about the war, but used it as a reason to settle old scores. There were several "massacres" (Shelton Laurel being one) during the war. Even the shooting of the "slow" fiddler and the other man is based on a true event. Their tombstones read "murdered by the home guard". And the state government did take action because of the brutality in the western mountains. There were several court-martials. Being from western NC, my dad heard his great aunt tell stories of yelling for the boys of the family to run hide from the soldiers(from both sides, since some were home without leave from the Confederate army to help with farming :) ) while they were working in the fields. Many local residents had problems with the Home Guard.
There was also a real W.P. Inman who served in the 25th NC, from Haywood county.

[DougCooper]

Re: "Cold Mountain" film review

I thought the CW military portion was awful, for all the reasons cited.

The angst/fear/danger vis a vis the home guard was real - though I was left wondering why in every movie a squad of yankees is always starving and bent on rape...as if they had to balance out the home guard's brutality.

What of the "average" home guard - would it not be normal for the army to wish to have the soldiers back, vice just shooting them when found? And how does a 20 year old able bodied potential soldier (the blonde kid) stay out of the army? I could understand old scores being settled - happened alot, but it was a bit much that these folks terrorized the town for that long without intervention as was said above.

One real downside: My wife looked over and said - why would anyone want to reenact such a brutal, awful time? Note to self: Rent "Glory"

[SCTiger]

Re: "Cold Mountain" film review

Today is the anniversary of the Battle of the Crater, I believe all soldiers should be honored and remembered for their sacrifices. I wish I was at Petersburg to lay a wreath.

[Matthew.Rector]

Re: "Cold Mountain" film review

It is noted elsewhere in this particular thread (that seems to go on and on and on ...) and some other places on the forum, but a good book that documents many of the incidents depicted in this film is:

Bushwackers The Civil War in North Carolina (Volume II: The Mountains)
by William R. Trotter
John. F. Blair, Publisher
Winston-Salem, North Carolina
1988
ISBN 0-89587-087-8 (pbk.)

The author mentions the stories concerning the Home guard crushing the womans thumbs, the real Capt. Robert Teague and some of the other incidents that occured in the book and/or movie. I recently read it and recommend it to those that are interested.