What color is it??

[SCSecesh]

I have often seen statements as to the "true" colors of uniforms seen on period photographs of Confederate soldiers.
Here is some food for thought -- the attached copy of a glass plate image was taken by Chris Morgan at the Moultrie LH done in conjunction with the Hunley reburial. As many know Chris uses an original lens on a repro box for his images, so the comparision here should hold.
Not more than two of any given men in this company had frocks that were the same color jean. The frocks (all well constructed) ran the gamut from FHW sow brown on brown to Tart's 10J and or 5J to Childs English kersey (officer on left rear) all the way to the "nicotine" jean that Daley is currently using on his frock repro (1st soldier,2nd row on left). However only two coats stand out as different (third from the left and 5th from the right) and both of these coats were a fairly dark coffee brown. And even these fit in nicely with the others!! Many of these coats were various shades of gray and or light brown/tan and the caps followed the same rules.
So now, without the benefit of a description of the specific uniform in a specific period image, how can you possibly tell the color of a uniform in an original photo??

[CJDaley]

Re: What color is it??

Ditto.

If I get the chance I'll scan in a few photos of the SGLHA taken by Claude Levet years ago. One of the photos was at Bentonville in 1993. It has guys in sky blue kersey trowsers, grey jean trowsers and even underdrawers, yet in the image, they all appear to be the same color.

You cannot tell weave or color from a period photo. It just ain't possible.

[markj]

Re: What color is it??

>You cannot tell weave or color from a period photo. It just ain't possible.

Hmmm. I make no claims of being a photographic expert but check out the attached extract from a well-known image of Confederate dead near Little Round Top.

Chris can probably tell better than I can but the striations in the fabric of the man's trousers are clearly visible--sure looks like "jean" to me. The color is still debatable--it could have been anything from gray to brown; however, the man's trousers were likely still sodden from post-battle rainshowers so they undoubtedly appeared darker than when dry.

Another interesting photo is this one (also available on the LoC "American Memory" site):

[Portrait of Gen. Edmund Kirby Smith, officer of the Confederate Army].

Remarkably clear image--you can even see much of the stitching in his coat. The wool fabric was clearly top-drawer and very expensive. Whoever tailored it didn't come cheap either.

I think Chris is technically incorrect about not being able to determine color from black and white images. I remember reading recently that the "color" photos taken by that probe now orbiting Saturn are at least initially transmitted in black and white. These are subsequently coverted to color by a special process although, in fairness, I'm not sure whether the same procedure can be performed with historic images. In short, I suspect the photographic technology is already out there to determine color from black and white images with a pretty high degree of precision (as well as exceptionally sharpen up images, which might provide us better details of clothing, etc.)...but it's people like NASA, the NSA and the CIA who are using it. In short, technology that's very expensive or very "classified."

This reminds me of that colorized World War I movie footage I saw on the "History Channel" the other night. Given what the technicians had to work with, they didn't do too bad a job--they undoubtedly used color photos of existing uniforms in museums, etc. as references when performing their "magic."

Maybe some kind soul will further illuminate me on this subject....

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: What color is it??

Here is an image of my chums and I. Notice how the Blue collars and cuffs of our "Columbus" depot jackets is almost invisible.

[Gallinipper]

Re: What color is it??

You cannot tell weave or color from a period photo. It just ain't possible.

The only exception I can think of would be in the case of non piece-dyed cassimere vs. the same of jeans or satinette. As that looks the same on both "sides", you might not tend to see the lighter shading on the reverse of rolled trows and the like, as you might (I stress might) with jeans or satinettes. Even then there's no way of knowing for sure, without having some matching description of what the subject is/are wearing at the time of that particular image. Plus, so many other variables could also come into play with regard to image quality, such as light and shade, movement, etc.

Why the heck couldn't Eli Whitney have invented a digital camera instead.....

Rich Croxton

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Re: What color is it??

Robert,

Do me a favor....

Can you give us the color of each hat shade Please? (If you can remember them that is.) Dan Mercer in the center, has on a light color hat which stands out pretty well, but what about the rest of you? Who has the browns, tans, black or other in the photo?

With past experience, I've noticed different hat colors can appear to look the same shade in photographs, even lighter color ones. Sometimes light browns, tans and grays appear darker or lighter depending on the environment it was taken.

Hat shades, and proper Federal canteen covors have been my focus as of late.

Thanks Robert,

[SCSecesh]

Re: What color is it??

Chris can probably tell better than I can but the striations in the fabric of the man's trousers are clearly visible--sure looks like "jean" to me. The color is still debatable--it could have been anything from gray to brown; however, the man's trousers were likely still sodden from post-battle rainshowers so they undoubtedly appeared darker than when dry.

Determining whether or not it is jean and whether or not is has striations in the weave due to weft (or warp) thread is two entirely different subjects. Those trousers definitely appear to have been "woven" with a variegated weft. Are they woven "jean"? Only his tailor knows for certain!!

[JimConley]

Re: What color is it??

I have to agree with Mr. Daley here. This is an image of my Dad and I taken at Rob Gibson's studio. Dad, on the left, is wearing a dark brown tiger jeans N. Carolina while I'm sporting a well-faded sheep's grey RDII. When you look at the image, it is hard to tell that there is a definite dark/light contrast between our two jackets. Also, the hat Dad is wearing is much lighter than it would appear in color, where here it looks pretty dark.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: What color is it??

Robert,

Do me a favor....

Can you give us the color of each hat shade Please? (If you can remember them that is.) Dan Mercer in the center, has on a light color hat which stands out pretty well, but what about the rest of you? Who has the browns, tans, black or other in the photo?

With past experience, I've noticed different hat colors can appear to look the same shade in photographs, even lighter color ones. Sometimes light browns, tans and grays appear darker or lighter depending on the environment it was taken.

Hat shades, and proper Federal canteen covors have been my focus as of late.

Thanks Robert,

Aaron,

If I remember correctly; clockwise from Evan. Evan's is light gray Randy's is tan, Ed's is redbrown, Dan's is "pecan", and mine is black.

[LibertyHallVols]

Photo comparison

Here are two pics of me in the same uniform: One ambrotype and one modern photo. The shirt is a cassimere made from dark blue/gray wool on a white warp and the trousers are FHW sheep gray satinette.

The shirt fabric has a distinct diagonal weave that (ironically) is not visible in either photo.

[ephraim_zook]

Re: Photo comparison

Colour reproduction in B & W film

Early plates and even films were sensitive primarily to the blue wavelengths of light -- they were "blind" to the rest of the spectrum. The result, in early pix, is that blue stuff in the original subject tends to look lighter than it would in photographs made today; objects at the red end of the spectrum look darker. Then you have to contend with the sky light -- clear, overcast, etc, and how the dyes or paints used reflected visible light and UV.

Panchromatic (sensitive to all colours) black & white film wasn't available until 1906.

Ron Myzie
Professor of Photography in real life

[Virginia Mescher]

Re:how colors photograph

Here are two pics of me in the same uniform: One ambrotype and one modern photo. The shirt is a cassimere made from dark blue/gray wool on a white warp and the trousers are FHW sheep gray satinette.

The shirt fabric has a distinct diagonal weave that (ironically) is not visible in either photo.

Several years ago, I did considerable research on how colors photographed in the wet plate photography process. An aritlcle appeared in the Feb/Mar, 1997 issue of Citizens' Companion. The issue is now out of print but I think they are still selling the article.

I included two pages of color swatches, both solids and patterns, and then the same swatches taken using the wet plate process.

I'm not a photographer so I can't really explain exactly why the color changes take place but in short, reds, oranges, and yellows will photograph black or a very dark shade. Blues, grays, and some browns will appear as a light shade. How a brown will photoghaph will be determined by how much yellow is in the brown. Greens usually photograph as a dark shade, depending on the amount of blue or yellow is in the green.

Blond hair usually photographed as black, unless the hair was powdered. Often people with blue eyes will photograph as "Orphan Annie eyes" and be almost completely white. There was much advice published on what to wear when having ones picture taken.

Since how the color photographed depended on the amount and type of light available when the photograph was taken. So unless one knows those conditions, it is impossible to be able to know exactly what the original color was.

[col90]

Re: how colors photograph

In addition, you might want to look at my group's picture in the image gallery here...Atlantic Guard Soldier's Aid Society..... http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...s.php?album=39 This image was taken by Rob Gibson, and we had a color picture taken at the same time. Kathryn's bright blue dress is very pale, almost white, in the image; Anita's red apron is black, etc....this is a good side by side comparison of both color and pattern differences.

[Ringgold]

Re: What color is it??

If you want to see something amazing sometime, pose for a wet-plate image and place a lemon somewhere in the camera's view. It will appear to be a very dark (almost black) lime. A friend of mine showed me an original CdV of a lady with a pitcher of lemonade with a stack of lemons beside it. I didn't believe they were lemons until he showed me the back and it said "Miss #### with her much celebrated [sic] lemonade. Rob Gibson affirmed this phenomenom for him at the last CCWP conference. I still can't figure out how something SO yellow can appear SO dark. Maybe it's the chlorophyl that we can't see that's showing through, or just plain witchery . . . :sarcastic

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: What color is it??

If you want to see something amazing sometime, pose for a wet-plate image and place a lemon somewhere in the camera's view. It will appear to be a very dark (almost black) lime. A friend of mine showed me an original CdV of a lady with a pitcher of lemonade with a stack of lemons beside it. I didn't believe they were lemons until he showed me the back and it said "Miss #### with her much celebrated [sic] lemonade. Rob Gibson affirmed this phenomenom for him at the last CCWP conference. I still can't figure out how something SO yellow can appear SO dark. Maybe it's the chlorophyl that we can't see that's showing through, or just plain witchery . . . :sarcastic

Take a look at the branch of service trim on these cavalrymens jackets.