Help needed. ie Depot Jackets in WW2 pow camps

[Vuhginyuh]

I had a question asked by a visitor in the field-office the other day and I could not answer it, much less keep a straight face.

He had been to Fort Fisher and heard during a uniform talk that NC had tens of thousands of uniform jackets at the end of the war. In fact they held them in inventory as late as 1943 and actually sold them as a contract to the Army to issue to German and Italian prisoners in the Hampton Roads area.

This man and his family left town BELIEVING that the prisoners lounged around camp in re-dyed Confederate uniforms with POW stenciled on the back.

I know this is not true and tried to politely tell our visitor that it wasn’t. He thought I just had a chip on my shoulder.

I have to ask if anyone else has heard this?

If this is in fact true where is the documentation?

The state could offer only the name of an old reinactor who frequented Fort Macon (NC) back in the late 1970's and claimed to have found and lost images and documents. Sadly, that was enough for NC Cultual Resources then and NC State Historic Sites now. I cannot find the fellow with the alleged information. I doubt anyone here has heard of him.

Questions and concerns like this are a bitter cup on this forum. Since it holds no historical truth and is being spread as part of an approved agency script I think it is important to mention and question.

I have fought the local “stars on the Confederate battle flag / tribes of Israel” lies by myself long enough.

I’m going to call the state’s hand on the jackets.

Modorators close this thread if it gets stale. Though important, it is a borderline topic.

[JimKindred]

Re: Help needed. ie Depot Jackets in WW2 pow camps

Similar story was told about the POW camp maintained at Fort Campbell, KY during WWII. If I remember correctly I believe it was the museum director that told me the story. I am sure he is no longer there as I left Campbell in 1989.

[Matthew.Rector]

Re: Help needed. ie Depot Jackets in WW2 pow camps

I've heard the same stories as well, without any documentation to back it up.

We had a POW Camp here at Fort Knox and I've done a good bit of research for it. As such, I've also been researching other Axis POWs camps in America. Based on photographic evidence and other records, I see a lot of POWs wearing denim, civilian clothes, surplus GI clothing, HBT fatigue clothing and some World War One American uniforms. I have never run across a photograph or record of an Axis prisoner being issued or wearing 19th century military clothing. Is it possible? I'm sure it may be, but am doubtful. I would be very interested in this if anyone has that documentation. I have heard about this being done but haven't had any proof to make such a claim.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Help needed. ie Depot Jackets in WW2 pow camps

APVA ( Virginia Cavalcade) has a good collection of POW images from NN/HR/Norfolk and there are only German and Italian uniforms supplemented with US issue.
This morning I spoke with a German POW interned here in Wilmington and he remembers having his clothing only w/ a WW1 US overcoat and blankets.

Modorators close this thread if it gets stale. Though important, it is a borderline topic.

[markj]

Re: Help needed. ie Depot Jackets in WW2 pow camps

Hi,

In the absence of further documentary evidence, I would suspect this tale, which I've also heard, must be placed in the "Civil War Urban Legend File." However, I would point out that there is documentation for FEDERAL troops being issued ex-Confederate jackets and trousers by their quartermasters!

To wit: a member of Wilder's Lightning Brigade, writing "near Macon, Ga." on 18 May 1865 reported the following to his family back home:

"Well Since we have been here, we have had to live on the abomniable “Johnys fare a part of the time without Coffee, but now we are getting rations from Savannah. they come to August[a] by boats, & by R.R. to Atlanta, and then down here – a great many of our men were in need [of] clothes when we got here and our Q. M.s
took possession of the Rebel clothing on hands at this place and issued it and now half the command is wearing more less Rebel clothes = "

I'd provide more details on the above letter were it not for the fact that I'm currently editing a large trove of unpublished wartime missives by the man mentioned above and don't want to "tip my hand" too much. Rest assured, much of what he had to say is nothing short of amazing.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Jasper]

Re: Help needed. ie Depot Jackets in WW2 pow camps

Hey All

Growing up by the largest arsonel in the United States (Rock Island) I have heard stories along the same line. In this case the story revolved around sack coats. The Fed had so many in surplus from the civil war and indian war period that it was decided the stincle or paint a (P) on the back and issue them to POW's. Weather this is true or not I don't know.

If your not paying close attention to a black and white photo could a sack coat look like a navy-p coat?


Would it suprise me if the Fed had these uniform items lost them or forgot them and then rediscovered them 80 or so years later and decide to use them as POW issue. NO it would not.

In the late 80's to the mid to late 90's Rock Island was building new buildings and converting and consolidateing the old warehouse buildings. In there inventory they had 1000 + enfields and springfeilds that missed being converted that saw service during the civil war. The wood was burned and the metal was sold for scrap.

recently the head caretaker of the national cemeteries at Rock Island IL and Keokuk IA (who is a reenactor) fought with the army over 10 55 gal drums filled with solid shot from the civil war. He saved them from going to scrap and is planning to have monuments made out of them to be placed at the confederate cemetary at Rock Island and at the national cemetary in Keokuk.

Jasper

[trippcor]

Re: Help needed. ie Depot Jackets in WW2 pow camps

I have never heard that said about WWII but I have heard some folks say that about POWs from WWI though I have never actually seen the documentation for it either. I have also heard surplus NC uniforms were used by the US Postal Service after the War as well but again I have not seen the documentation for that comment either.

Now I did hear both of these comments from someone I hold in high esteem for their knowledge and who I had never known to say something that was not researched. He made these statements many years ago and is no longer in the hobby. I will try and get intouch with him to see if he knows of any documentation to support these statements.

[tmattimore]

Re: Help needed. ie Depot Jackets in WW2 pow camps

I do know that shoes captured on the docks at Wilmington were fowarded by the navy to Sherman's troops with out going thru a prize court. See D.D. Porters Naval History of the Civil War. As to N.C. surplus I have read but never documented that N.C. issued surplus shoes to prison inmates until reformers stopped the pratice since the pegs had never been filed off inside the shoes.

[marine05]

Re: Help needed. ie Depot Jackets in WW2 pow camps

It would not surprise me in the least if these stories were true. We still have ships resting in mothball fleets from WWII. Some of the bunker buster bombs used in DS were made from surplus 8 in rifle barrels that were to be used to re-tube heavy cruisers. The last big gun cruiser was decommed in 1977 or so the USS Little Rock. We also still have 16 in barrels. We still have many M-1 Garands in the inventory and some of our active duty helicopters, UH-1s and CH-46s saw service in VN.

The gov't has billions of dollars worth of inventory, a percentage of which is obsolete and eventually will end up going for auction. But in the mean time it is stored at depots.

s/f

DJM

[markj]

Re: Help needed. ie Depot Jackets in WW2 pow camps

What seems pretty certain, if we accept this story as being true, is that, in the immediate post-CW period, any obviously "Confederate" buttons likely would either have been covered over with cloth, physically altered, or simply replaced. This would have been due to Federally-imposed strictures against obvious display of Confederate symbols (the "Branch frock coat" shown in "EoG" is one probable example).

Here's another possibility: many post-bellum military companies reconstituted in the South not-so-subtly adopted gray uniforms in a nod to their Confederate antecedents. It's certainly not beyond the realm of possibility (although unlikely) that some old state militia uniforms were passed on to Axis POWs needing to be clothed on short notice. As I recall, some examples of post-war militia uniforms can be seen in the 1893-1932 issues of the Confederate Veteran.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Help needed. ie Depot Jackets in WW2 pow camps

Jasper and Dan.

I understand the use of surplus heavy ordinance and tubes.

I am asking about Confederate uniforms being issued to Axis POWS, NC shell jackets, not sack coats, issued to army and Luftwaffe prisoners, not navy.

The jackets did not exist in inventory or overstock during the period.

[Gallinipper]

Re: Help needed. ie Depot Jackets in WW2 pow camps

And the story continues.....

It seems that sooner or later everyone in the hobby from NC is destined to hear the story about the German POWs wearing surplus NC uniforms. It ranks right up there with the story about NC jackets being made from imported English wool (see Dave Hunter's illuminating CCG article on the suject: "The Jacket That Almost Was"). And let's not forget those farby "Who Shot Jackson?" jeers-- though quite deserved when preceeded by an even more farby "Who Are We?" chant.

Rich Croxton

BTW-- The stars on the battleflag stand for Jesus and the 12 disciples, and Levi Ledbetter is THE source for your NC uniform. Don't you know nothin'? ;)

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Help needed. ie Depot Jackets in WW2 pow camps

I do know that shoes captured on the docks at Wilmington were fowarded by the navy to Sherman's troops with out going thru a prize court. See D.D. Porters Naval History of the Civil War. As to N.C. surplus I have read but never documented that N.C. issued surplus shoes to prison inmates until reformers stopped the pratice since the pegs had never been filed off inside the shoes.

This is the historical reference that probably started the unifrom myth.


After a few emails I have traced the origin of the story at Fort Macon. Based on the knowledge I now have of the source I doubt anything remotely associated with the uniform story is true.
Tragically, I was at beautiful Ft. Macon last summer and witnessed the ''troops'' whistling the Bridge Over The River Kwai march and singing the Mickey Mouse theme (Full Metal Jacket style...)

The shoes on the otherhand...

[1stMaine]

Re: Help needed. ie Depot Jackets in WW2 pow camps

Comrades,

I also heard the same story, except that it was German POW's from WWI, not WWII. As to supplies in storage, I can well remember my own surprise during a field exercise in 1973 where my platoon was issued with various "C" rations dated with 1944 contract dates.......
There is also a letter in the Library of the VA Hospital in Togus, Maine, from the CW vetereans still living there in the 1880's, protesting the issuance of the "New Pattern Uniform Coats" and demanding new issues of the "Old Pattern" they wore during the war. Apparently their wish was acceded to, and 4-button blouses were either issued from storage or manufactured for them.
respects,

[58 lorenz]

Re: Help needed. ie Depot Jackets in WW2 pow camps

The US Army,in the period between the 2 world wars, used fatigue uniforms made of blue denim. The jacket of this uniform had a faint resemblance to a sack coat, so I suppose this is where some of the rumors started. During WW2, these uniforms, no longer standard for the US Army, were issued to POWs,with a "P" stenciled on the back. When my Dad first entered the Army in 1942, these old blue denim fatigues were highly sought after by the recruits, as they felt it made them look like a salty old-timer, instead of fresh meat in the new HBT fatigues.



Doug Price