Strange Federal Hospital Steward's Jacket

[verg]

Dear Friends,

Will those of you uniform knowledgable folks take a look at a CDV offered currently on Ebay?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2264335344&category=409&sspagename=rvi:1:1

I don't think I have ever seen a jacket quite like this one. Is it a jacket and vest?
Unusual variant with multiple colour material for the body? Joke by some guy 140 some years ago on uniform fixated fools in the future?

Thank you!

[1stMaine]

Re: Strange Federal Hospital Steward's Jacket

Comrade Jon,

The Steward is wearing a zouave jacket with a false vest front for closure. It's likely to be a satinette material, from it's appearance on the image. Other than that, he's wearing regulation clothing. Many stewards, judging from extant images, wore dark blue trowsers in preference to the sky blue. Whether they were drawn through special request or simplt commercially purchased is any one's guess.
The Steward obviously belongs to a unit which adopted Zouave dress, or at least some portion thereof. Out west, the initial one that comes to mind was the 11th Indiana (Wallace's Zouaves), but of course, it could be any of them. At Vicksburg, many regiments started to adopt a "Zouave" look, some simply stitching light blue panels made from old trowsers to the fronts of their jackets. How wide-spread that became is anyone's guess, but it was sufficient to make an impression and be remarked upon.
The best effort to locate the regiment would be to date the image, which is at least post-1862, both from the tax-stamp and the fact it was taken in New Orleans. From there, a list of regiments assigned to the area may be consulted, and the name of the steward, which appears on the back at the bottom compared to the regimental histories. A search of the man's name might also be in order. Additionally, a search of the City Directory for the photographer's name(s) and address will give the dates of location there.
A great image! Thanks for sharing this one.
respects,

[Agate]

What the heck are those colors?

Hello,

Interesting image, thanks for bringing it to our attention.

It looks to be one of variants of the "strange" commercial uniforms adopted by several regiments serving late in the Department of the Gulf.

Not particularly a "state" thing, but images and accounts survive that indicate some of these "veteran" regiments purchased their uniforms, or adopted them through the USQMD.

In the Regimental of the 48th OVVI, the following was mentioned:

Col. Parker, who had rejoined the army at Grand Ecore, shortly after the capture of the Regiment, was put in command of the remnant of the brigade during the retreat down Red River. They were finally sent to New Orleans, where the Colonel, in the latter part of July, obtained furloughs for the veterans of the Regiment who had escaped capture, and those who had rejoined from sick-leave and detached duty, and took them home. Before leaving, they procured quite a gay uniform, in which they made a handsome appearance. Upon arriving at Cincinnati they were paraded through the streets to the Fifth Street Barracks, where they were quartered.

This link should go to another late New Orleans image of a Hospital Steward, Id'd as an unknown member of the 48th OVVI:

http://www.48ovvi.org/oh48album14.html

Don't believe it to be exactly the same uniform, kind of hard to tell though, what do you think? It does illustrate the point well, however. Someone was supposed to be doing a study of these different regiments, will have to follow up on that.

Did a quick "Soldiers and Sailors" check on the name Vanmeter from Ohio. Couple popped up right away from the 56th OVVI another one of these late veteran regiments which served in the AotT, and served during this late period at New Orleans. Doubt their to be a relationship, was an interesting find, however.

Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, and Iowa I thought all had regiments that served down there and were associated with this. Anybody have anything?

Thanks again, neat one,

John

John Sarver
Cincinnati

[1stMaine]

Re: Strange Federal Hospital Steward's Jacket

Comrade John,

It's interesting to note that the Hospital Steward image you referenced shows him wearing the appropriate trowser stripe, that of an Ordnance Sergeant, crimson in color. By Regulation, the HS's were to wear the dress coat and trowsers of an Ordnance Sergeant, but with general service buttons and the Cadeuces half-chevron replacing the sergeant's stripes. Many did this, often replacing the dress coat with the blouse for field wear, but retaining the towser stripe. Some, however weant so far as to use officer's trowsers with a gold staff welt, or plain trowsers. Untrimmed MSJ's are also seen, as are a variety of headgear.
I suspect that the Zouave pattern jacket in the NO image is either light blue or grey, with a red false vest, although it's impossible to be certain.
respects,

[Canton Zouave]

Re: Strange Federal Hospital Steward's Jacket

This is my interpretation of how this jacket may have been constructed.

I used my Windows Picture/Fax Viewer to closely examine some of the details of the jacket.

The jacket appear to be a 9 button front shell jacket with some flair. The jacket, once buttoned, would give the impression of a Zouave jacket with false vest.

I am imaging this: (Please note that the colors are an assumption)

Body: Sky Blue (Gray is a good possibilty as well)
Narrow Band: Tape (red?) Worseted Wool or Twill (who knows)
Button & Button Hole Bands: Dark Blue
Collar: Dark Blue

Obviously the image isnt fine enough to determine exact fabric types.

If you look at the image and look at the hand resting on the column. Just above the hand you will see the lining and interfacing of the coat.

My conjecture is that the tape may cover the seam between the light and dark fabric.

Of course this is all conjecture...when we dont have the original to examine.

So in order to take a closer,color look, at what I am thinking, I have sewn up a sampling. It should be noted that the sample is not made to scale, but meant to merely show how the pieces may have been joined. It is just a thought.

The dark blue vest is simply that...a seperate vest.

Also, for those people who like to collect notes on period photos. Check out his right (hanging) hand. There is a ring on his little finger.


Image One: Shows the pieces joined with a simulated collar, and button. The white twill was used to show the contrast, and it was what I had.

Image Two: Shows the seam with the twill moved out of the way.

Image Three: Shows an interfacing with possible lining.

Once again, this is merely my interpretation. None the less it is a very interesting jacket.

(OOPS: If you open the thumbnails, they blurr easily. Please use an image viewer so you can zoom out of the image to get a better idea of what I am talking about)

[1stMaine]

Re: Strange Federal Hospital Steward's Jacket

Comrade Todd,

I am not convinced as yet that there is a tape edge on the jacket. It looks more to me that what appears to be a tape trim is actually just the shadow of the edge of the outer garment piece. This is basically a collarless zouave jacket to which has been added, as was the case in many of these style garments, a false vest front, with the collar being a part of false vest, and of the same material and color.
I suspect that the jacket portion is of sky-blue, but grey is also a possibility, it having been used for similar Federal zouave jackets. I also venture the false vest to be of red, although it might also be of a saxon or royal blue. I base that guess, and it is only that, upon the contrast between the false vest shade versus the known colors of emarald green on the HS half-chevron, and the dark blue of the actual vest, trowsers, and cap. I would tentatively rule out yellow as the color of the false vest, through a comparison with a known yellow in the image, that being the trim and cadeuces insignia on the HS half-chevron.
Anyway, that's my two-cents worth.
respects,

[Canton Zouave]

Re: Strange Federal Hospital Steward's Jacket

Comrade Tim,


Take a look just above the top button. There is a stitch line/ seam that attaches what looks like a short collar. (perhaps 1.5 inches if that) I have added an image of a shell jacket for comparison. On the jacket in question, if you look at the button face and go along that line to the wrist on the hip....that tape line moves out from the edge of the jacket to give the impression of a zouave jacket opening. I have added some close up pics.

I am thinking that a tailor has taken the false vest one step further, and opposed to adding a false vest front to the inside of the coat, he has simulated that vest with fabric to the front of a shell pattern.

Also, I added a drawing of what I am thinking.

Just some further thoughts, and the ante is now up to 4 cents. None the less a good exchange of thoughts.

[Canton Zouave]

Re: Strange Federal Hospital Steward's Jacket

Tim,


I re-read your post....and added another image. This shows the tape for which I am speaking. I hope that clears things up a bit on my behalf.

Respectfully,

[Agate]

Re: Strange Federal Hospital Steward's Jacket

Bully discussion Lads,

Found another one of these regiments with several more photos in what may be Veteran's uniforms. Don't know much about the 34th Indiana, very well could have been Zouaves. Think we have to at least consider the number of service stripes on these soldiers, however. At one point, late, they adopted something that looks special.

I know that some of the Ohio regiments that were wearing this stuff have, over the years, been interpreted as having adopted Zouave dress, and they were not, they were veteranized, and adopted a look because of it.

Again, Dept. of the Gulf, late duty at New Orleans and on to Texas.

Didn't take all that long either, I'll do some more searching tonight.

As I was thinking about it, for some reason I seem to remember orders published for this "veteran" clothing-will make a call on that one, I have to check with my "source" on this stuff from time to time. Hate to do so though, as I owe him a hundred bucks. :confused_

Some of the most interesting uniforms are associated with the Western Department, beginning as early as with Fremont.

Should be a much larger percentage of images as well if a study is made on all this, as opposed to finding early, solidly pegged images.

Regards,

John

http://www.geocities.com/zouavedatabase/indiana/34thin.html

http://www.civilwarindiana.com/soldiers/reg034.html

John Sarver
Cincinnati

[Canton Zouave]

Re: Strange Federal Hospital Steward's Jacket

John,

Good images of the 34th Indiana. These jackets seem to be trully "Collarless" zouave jackets. However, I can't seem to get a good enough image to zoom in on to see how the fronts are made. They appear to have the same styling for the false vest as I describe in the previous posts. If we might refer to page 59 in William Davis' Book "The Civil War Reenactors' Encylcopedia" (sorry I cant seem to find my EOG for references) we see an image of the 23rd Pennsylvania's Zouave Jacket with False Vest. This is the type of Jacket that I believe Tim is referring to with the False Vest secured to the inside of the coat.

Just some more references, and some good stuff.

[Agate]

Re: Strange Federal Hospital Steward's Jacket

http://www.civilwarindiana.com/soldiers/reg046.html

Looks as if the 46th Indiana shared history with the 34th.

http://www.civilwarindiana.com/soldiers/reg067.html

The 67th Indiana looks like another veteran 13th Corps regiment.

Looks too, like members of the 12th and 49th Indiana both had at least some folks in a similar jacket/suit.


Just for clarity, not to debate the Zouave look of the jacket, or that these regiments were in fact not Zouaves. I'm just under the impression that some of these regiments serving in that department adopted uniforms when they became veteran regiments.

The 53rd and 76th OVI regiments have often been referred to as Zouaves, having nothing to do with the 13th Corps, BTW. The jacket/suit that both regiments adopted was somewhat of a reward for a successful bid to reenlist in the Army. Every time I mention this, I get a profusion of e-mail from some upstate Ohio reenactor 1st Sergeant who just ain't happy with my conclusion.

It isn't my conclusion, that comes directly from Larry Strayer not me, and based on his research, on this point of which, I don't know. We had a conversation concerning those uniforms a while back when I sold him a CDV of the regimental historian of one of those units. Anyway, as several folks on this board correspond with Larry, maybe one might ask next time they talk with him, cause this 1st Sergeant just isn't all that happy with me! Pretty sure he isn't beating down the door to support his arguments, seems very comfortable being a Zouave. :sarcastic

Anyway, looks as if Hoosiers liked that jacket, may well have been a mimic of Wallace's, they served in the same command as most of these.

What I think is really neat is that the trefoils on the clothing of the 34th IVI seem to have no standard, some point up, some point down, some are absent it looks like, all extant seem to be of somewhat different sizes. *Might* really point out the differences between interpretations of clothiers from the period.

Take care fellas,

John

John Sarver
Cincinnati

Just happened across this on ebay, thought I would throw it in.

http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13960&item=2262974347

[roundshot]

Re: Strange Federal Hospital Steward's Jacket

I agree with the probable Indiana association. These style coats were quite popular in the Department of the Gulf. Wonder if, in fact, this is a musician with offsetting coat color and facings (and pants, for that matter) doing steward duty.

Bob Williams
Reilly's NC Btty