You will not be shot!

[paulcalloway]

I picked up this snipet from the Camp Chase Gazette forum and thought it was something important to address and readdress:

[One of the reasons the hobby is shrinking is] "The impression gained from various websites that you will be shot on sight for the slightest inaccuracy in uniform or gear can put off newcomers,also."
Doug Price

While I think we all would surmise "you will be shot" is an overexageration by the author of the post in order to show his point, this belief among mainstreamers that hardcores will come down hard on them is an ongoing concern that needs to be addressed, explained and dispelled.

I remember in my early days of authenticity, while attending a decidedly mainstream event, some self-important "hardcore" (uninvited) grabbing the fly of my trousers and pulling it back and kneeling for a closer inspection of my button-holes. I felt somewhat violated. It's a good thing I was fully buttoned since I wear issue Federal issue drawers... where the only thing between you and the outdoors is your shirttail. At first I was pretty put off by this... and in fact I still am, but its in recent years that I've fully realized how much this guy DID NOT know about authenticity - he was NO hardcore.

There's much more to a garment then buttonholes and there's much more to being hardcore then pointing out said buttonholes. I've purposely, as a social experiment, shown guys an attrocious buttonhole and said "doesn't that look tight?"... and they respond with "Oh wow, thats just beautiful."

The reason I tell you this is that generally the guys making the big deal about your buttonholes are the guys trying to impress the rest of his buddies with a big production about how he can be mean to mainstreamers and how very much he knows about period buttonholes when in fact he knows next to nothing.

Look, if your coat is wrong, your buttonholes are the least of your worries. I can't see a buttonhole from 30 feet (usually) but I sure can see a bad pattern, bad construction and bad cloth from 30 feet.

Very often said trouble-maker ISN'T a hardcore at all. He's generally not much more seasoned in authenticity then the mainstreamer he's criticizing. He's trying to separate himself from his mainstream days and prove to everyone just how far he's come. To compound the problem, this fellow causing trouble for the mainstreamers, since he's so new to the authenticity movement, is more often then not found AT mainstream events! The real hardcores aren't going to many mainstream events, if any... so all too often, I believe mainstreamers are basing their opinions of hardcores based upon those who've yet to even see the "authenticity-elephant" and who are certainly not hardcore at all!

It seems to be a natural reaction among youthful converts to authenticity and many of us that have spent a few years over here absolutely abhore that sort of behavior.

Anyone that knows me, or knows anyone from the GHTI, would likely vouch that I'm not going to ride your case over silliness like that. Now certainly if you're willing to be helped, I'll offer some constructive ideas on how to improve... and certainly if we publish event uniform standards for an event of our making, we expect them to be followed - but I'm not going to grab your fly and embarrass you in front of anyone. Nobody in the GHTI would do that and I dare say damned few in the WIG or the RPs, CRs, LRs or just about anywhere else would publicly or even privately dress you down.

I've got spare hats, jackets, trousers, blankets and other equipment and clothing items that have seen more action then Wilt Chamberlin ever did. If you show up at an event and need some help, I'm going to open that box up for you and let you use anything you want... it's there for the taking. I've lent stuff out for a single event and I've lent stuff out for 12 months at a time. I'm not the messiah of the hobby either... lots of guys do it this way, if you need help, find some good guys and just ask.

I urge mainstreamers viewing this board to not take to heart comments made by trouble-makers on this forum, on other forums, in the print periodicals or even on the field. There are plenty of guys who would be proud, that's right - proud, to help you.

I feel this is an important message that needs to be communicated to the mainstream. Too often they see our infighting (another sore subject with me) and couple it with their initial perceptions of a few hardcore-wannabe's and decide that hardcores as a whole are meanies... and I believe it leads to a massive misunderstanding that is destructive to the hobby as a whole.

Thanks for lending your ear.

*Note: Before someone brings it up, quite awhile back, I did dress down a VENDOR on these forums for presenting attrocious buttonholes (among other problems) because I think VENDORS should know better if they are purporting to be authentic and selling their wares under the guise of authenticity.

[YankRI]

Don't shoot!

Paul,

2003 was my first season in the hobby. I must admit that I was a bit nervous appearing in front of others with my "stuff" for the first time for the reasons stated in your post. Fortunately, I received some nice compliments because of the good advice I received (any mistakes made were solely that of the purchaser - me - and there were plenty!). But most of the events I attended were definitely mainstream events where the bar isn't set all that high.

My goal this upcoming season, now that I've gotten my feet wet, is to take it to the next level (or several levels) and participate in some c/p/h events if folks will have me. However, one of things that brings trepidation for a neophyte such as myself is that some of the aforementioned mistakes of my own doing when I first started (an old song from what I understand) need to be rectified. I don't feel comfortable trying to attend events that have appropriately high standards that I can't meet because I screwed up on the first go-around (e.g., "only 2-riveted scabbards need apply - no 7-riveted scabbards allowed!"). I know it sounds silly but guys like me worry about this type of stuff because we want to get it right. We worry worry how we'll be received when we know that our impressions need work but can't improve them fast enough because we're still learning or don't have the funds. It's a dilemma for me but I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it if I'm fortunate to have the opportunity to experience the "other side" of the hobby.

Anyway, thanks for the kind post, Paul. I'm sure that there's more than one of me out there who feels better for reading it!

Happy holidays,

Michael P. Jolin

[dusty27]

Re: You will not be shot!

Michael,

Welcome to the "dark side".

I have a question for you.

Are you affiliated with any group? If not, you should look around this forum and others and see if the posters that you agree with most in terms of types of events you want to try, are part of a group. You could contact that group or check them out online (many have websites) and determine just how "far away" you are from meeting their standards.

Next, if you ask some of the better groups, they might have loaner gear (like Paul mentioned) that they could loan you to meet the standards for the event. One of the biggest goofs that people make getting into this hobby (myself included) is buying too specific gear like jackets with state buttons, state belt buckles, etc. Generic is the best way to go when purchasing your first stuff.

As soon as Paul is able to bring back the old information from the site, there will be a list of authentic groups with contact info. Check it out and good luck.

[pfeiffer3964]

Re: Don't shoot!

My goal this upcoming season... is to take it to the next level... and participate in some c/p/h events if folks will have me (empasis added).

Michael:

Don't worry, I'm sure folks will have you. I know my group would, as, to me, attitudes are just as important, if not more important, than gear. You can always buy or borrow gear, but you can't always get a better attitude. From the tone of your post, you already have the later.

Even though I've never been turned away from an event, I always have some uneasyness about meeting standards. Like you, I just want to get it right without any hassle so that everyone gets from any given event what they are expecting.

So, do your best, don't get too worked up about appearances (since they can easily be rectified) and enjoy the upcoming seasons!

Regards,

[Yellowhammer]

Re: You will not be shot!

Let's look at the other half of that "CCG" statement for a second. By who's account is the hobby shrinking?

Perhaps the mainstreamer hobby who attend the mega-turbo-fests is shrinking but every evidence I see is that our hobby (the authentic side) is growing by leaps and bounds.

Look at the increase in the size and attendance of authentic events. Look at the number of authentic units, vendors, websites, etc...

IMHO, one segment of our umbrella "hobby" might be shrinking but overall, the hobby is definitely growing.

To my eye, that quote smacks of the bitter old school "hardcore" hating mainstreamer who is bitter that 140th Gettysburg didn't have 25,000 reenactors.

[Nor'easter]

Re: You will not be shot!

I can't add much here, but if I were to add anything it would include the old addage that you're known by the company you keep.

Alan, please sign all your posts. Using the auto-signature feature in your profile will facilitate this. - mike chapman

[Eric Tipton]

An Important Question

John:

Let's look at the other half of that "CCG" statement for a second. By who's account is the hobby shrinking?

I guess I should fess up that I was the one who put the orginal topic up on CCG about whether or not the hobby is shrinking. It wasn't posted because of any personal assertion on my part (especially regarding Gettysburg, which I did not attend, endorse or promote for my own reasons), but because it was something that kept coming up in conversations with many different people (from many different persuasions). It's a valid point, as far as the overall hobby goes and a question that is at the core of why people continue to reenact or don't. It's a perception question that encourages each individual to think about the big picture and we have had some very good feedback on the conversation so far - some negative, but mostly positive and contrary to the post quoted here.

If the hobby is truly shrinking, as has been asserted by some, then it is probably due to the cycle of things that occur in most everything. Based on my rudimentary studies of economics, the best thing to do during a dip in the cycle is to prepare for the next upswing (i.e. 150 th Anniversaries? A highly successful 2004 season? A REALLY good movie somewhere on the horizon?). If the hobby is not shrinking, it's still important to find out why people would believe that it is. ;)

I have also seen the same surge in more authentic vendors, larger authentic events and an effort to attract groups from different locales to events for 2004. This is a great thing for the hobby and it's overall improvement and by all means should be encouraged. :) I think the increase you commented on reflects the evolution (and revolution) that has been ongoing since the days our forebearers put on blue jackets, jeans and combat boots with their buddies. It's also due to an ever-growing core of people that are looking out for the overall betterment of the hobby.

Every individual is different and finding out what might keep anyone from improving themselves; encouraging improvement in their unit, or objectively commenting on the events they attend is an important study for the health of our hobby. Finding out why they might not want to cross over to the more-authentic is an important study for reenacting and for the AC Forum as well, and I'm sure that is the reason Paul has pointed to this post.

I appreciate that Paul put this post here on the AC. It shows, once again, that he is looking at the big picture. :)

[SCTiger]

Re: You will not be shot!

Has anyone analyzed what the "shrinkage" is the result of? Any hard data?
If we have people leaving because they aren't interested in presenting history in the right form, then what have we lost? Have we considered that the hobby could be getting smaller because it is getting better? It isn't as simple as buying anything the sutler throws at you, giving a 30 minute show, then camping as if your at the Holiday Inn.

If they are leaving because of good campaign practices then what can we do?
Maybe the mainstream side is reducing because people aren't finding any meaning to the experience.

If someone is being a jerk on the c/p/h side just ignore them. If he or she states that your "socks" aren't the correct color, ask them why? If it's a sound and valid point, advise them that you will upgrade to new socks as soon as you can. Although no one is 100 % authentic, listen to some of these "jerks" and hear what they have to say, they will eventually leave you alone. Some are lacking in the "personality" department but, I have received good information from a few of the gear heads. Typical scenario:

Common Event 2004 : RAG Inspection

Inspector Gear Head: Your socks are all wrong. (lacks charisma).

Hot Head: You suck! I am never coming back. I will soon write evil things about you on other forums. How dare you say anything about my totaly authentic uniform!

Scenario 2:

Inspector Gear Head: Your Socks are all wrong.

Reasonable Guy : Really? I bought them from Fall Down Sutler. I paid $16. Could you enlighten me?

Inspector GH: Your socks are made from modern materials and dyes, the weave and construction are from modern looms. I studied 19th Century socks and wrote a paper about socks for my unit, I also made many trips to the museums and advised sutlers. Fall Down Sutler isn't a good source. Some reputable sutlers have authentic socks at the same price. You socks appear to be modern hunting socks.

Reasonable Guy: Well thanks for the info! Is there anything I can do? I have another pair from John Madewell, are they acceptable? Otherwise could I borrow a pair from someone?

IGH : Yes it's alright, just for future reference, it would be wise to invest in a more authentic pair. If you need anything else, just borrow it from Paul. :)

So the attitude runs both ways.


Greg Deese

[Eric Tipton]

Re: You will not be shot!

Greg:

I wish someone did have some reliable stats on the number of reenactors, because the whole discussion has me curious as hell. As usual, you've raised an excellent point. IF the hobby is getting smaller, is it a bad thing? I think it is, because it reduces the overall pool of people for everyone. I'd like to see the hobby get bigger and better at the same time. I know this gets into the Quality vs. Quanity area, but the authentic side of the hobby, to a certain degree relies on the mainstream for new recruits and if the spigot is turned off, the water in the whole bucket starts to dry out. I also agree that this is a cyclical thing, if it is true and is no reason to say the sky is falling, but something to think about.

If they are leaving because of good campaign practices then what can we do? Maybe the mainstream side is reducing because people aren't finding any meaning to the experience.

There are plenty of Mainstream reenactors who want more, but are afraid of the boogeyman and things they've heard. Paul is actively watching out for this on this site and we are trying to do the same at CCG. It's tough to break stereotypes both ways and some just don't want to try. I for one, have been fortunate enough to meet many good people already and they have come from all persuasions in the hobby.

If numbers are decreasing (or increasing for that matter), I think it happens across the board. Some of the responses I've heard from people in the Mainstream say that their unit numbers are increasing. I don't know...without the actual numbers, the discussion is very theoretical, but interesting nonetheless.

Yeah, as far as people go, we all know disagreeable people in the world and they come in all shapes and sizes. The information is the key as you've pointed out. It comes down to the person who is receiving it and whether they want to know more or not. If they don't, it doesn't matter who the info comes from or how.

So the attitude runs both ways.

Agreed. ;)

[Michael McComas]

Re: You will not be shot!

If the assertion that the hobby is shrinking is based on attendance at G140, could it have anything to do with the change of date?

[flattop32355]

Re: Don't shoot!

I know it sounds silly but guys like me worry about this type of stuff because we want to get it right. We worry how we'll be received when we know that our impressions need work but can't improve them fast enough because we're still learning or don't have the funds. It's a dilemma for me but I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it if I'm fortunate to have the opportunity to experience the "other side" of the hobby.

Michael P. Jolin

Since my insightful and intensely well-written post of the 19th is no more :), I shall try another tack:

Version 1:
Authentic: Your impression has room for improvement. ( I realize that not everyone wants to/is ready to work on a more authentic impression, but here are some tips that don't take that much more effort or cost, and are well worth the time to look into, making your experience in the hobby that much more enjoyable. And if you would like, I can show you some even more indepth things that me and my pards enjoy doing.)
Mainstreamer: Oh, someone who can help me improve! Please, tell me what I need to work on. Even if I can't/don't want to do them now, they are good to know for when I am ready to do so...

Version 2:
Authentic: Your impression has room for improvement. (Therefore, you must be a dolt and shouldn't even be in this hobby. Speaking of which, what are you even doing here messing things up for us who DO know what we are doing? Why don't you just go home and leave these kind of things to the experts?)
Mainstreamer: Okay....thanks a lot....see ya around...maybe...geez!

Check to see which version applies to yourself, and think which is more effective for the hobby. And remember: Alienation of a given person extends to all those around them; friends, family, etc. who may be possible recruits until that person says that he got out because of some mule's anus talking down to him. Then they are lost. Forever.

As a fairly newly-recruited mainstreamer, my present interest is in doing a reasonable impression of a civil war soldier, and to bring my mildly social-behaviorally deficient son in with me on a common interest where we can spend time together. I also will be working on the educational side in schools as well. But now is not the time for me to be more concerned about whether the thickness of the leather on my cartridge box is correct rather than whether my son and I are enjoying each other's company, and the company of others. And if you tell him that his Jethro Bodine-style slouch hat is incorrect, he will look at you with steely eyes, and say to you, "So what? I like to wear it."

As I said on the 19th: If the a/p/h branch of the hobby implodes, it will not be because of the mainstreamers, etc.: It will be because of the infighting among the a/p/h'ers themselves: I refer to posts of power struggles and "need to be in command" seen in other posts, here and on other fora.

Us "minor leaguers" have an important place in the hobby. I hope to make my impression better and better as time goes on, but if I never reach that level of acceptable a/p/h nirvana, I shall be quite satisfied to spend time with my son, freezing/sweating my arse off, and generally having a wonderful time as a reenactor. Would that it be so for us all.

Bernard Biederman
30th OVI
Co. B

[Edit: Sorry if your post disappeared. We're having a database problem and more then a few have come up missing. I'm working on it actively. -Paul]

[Clark Badgett]

Re: You will not be shot!

Paul, nice posting. I learned the hard way that nice or nasty some of the more authenticy challenged amongst us will still think the same of us. The 'mean ole hardcore' moniker was a smear tactic that has worked to some degree to keep otherwise more authenticity interested pards away from making the final step that leads down the road that would eventually ruin mainstream units. Do you have any idea how many mean and nasty things I was once accused of at events I that I didn't even attend?

[SCTiger]

Re: You will not be shot!

Clark, Eric et al.

I thought of this post and of the discussion on the Camp Chase forum. Paul was being very accomodating and understanding. Most c/p/h types I have talked with in the last year have been very helpful. Unfortuantely there are some people who can't take correction, advice or abide by the rules no matter how diplomatic you are.

Even in the mainstream side, if the event has a "no cars in camp after 8 am Saturday rule" how often have you seen this violated? Aside from emergency situations, I have seen folks leave their vehicle right by the camp for the whole event. So what good is that rule and others? My big theory; we live in a society that views "rules" and "laws" as obstacles to get around. Malcontents do not view them as agreements that make life civilized and fair. The people we want to recruit, obey the rules and appreciate their value. Farbs hate rules.

What have we learned from this discussion?

If the mainstream, progressive and authentic really want to advance this hobby, let's quit worrying about the Nancy boys who mortally fear for their life if they show up wearing a bad jacket or the pathological whiners who want everything their way or the chronic politicians. Let's recruit people who won't play such silly games.

How do we do this? Good communication and good questions.

What are your views on loyalty?

Can you follow as well as you lead?

What does it mean to be a soldier?

Are you capable of taking constructive criticism?

Are you served by the rules?

Are you serious about history?

Positive answers to the above questions will result in candidates that will have the same principles we have. You can't buy principles at the sutlers.

So we could fret endlessly over the people who are leaving or we could rebuild the hobby by attracting the "right" people who will carry our mission forward.

Greg Deese

[Kykeydet12]

Re: You will not be shot!

pards:
another thing all of us must remember, is that you should never have an ' well this will work until I can get another'attitude . I myself used to have that type of attitude until I one day after coming back from a reenactment looked at my uniform , felt it's fabric and said this is all wrong , I found nearly a year ago that my sack coat that as a young reenactor bought from , and do I dare say it , james county sutler, the coat he sold me was a slightly purple color with fabric that was to thin to substaine an authentic imppression. I to this day still wear it but only when I get cold , usually I am wearing a vest , and a wool blend shirt. the reason I havn't replaced yet for those curious types is because I've been to busy replaceing brogans . so yeah .


Rob

[Jeffrey Przewozniak]

Re: You will not be shot!

Hi Folks,

I have to say that I agree on the notion that the authentic community is in fact growing, and that the supposed shrinking of the mainstreamers has little or no effect on us.

It was written earlier “…I think it is, [bad for the hobby] because it reduces the overall pool of people for everyone…”

I respectfully disagree.

Personally, I would rather attend a low-key event with a small number of participants with authentic attitudes and gear, rather than a “mega-turbo-event” with 100s of incorrectly attired individuals with less-than-desirable attitudes. Looking at your average spectator with a “bigger is better” attitude and a family to entertain for the weekend, I bet he/she would love to see 100s of reenactors walking around in a field happily shooting at each other. I mean, the more reenactors/shooting/tents/generals/sutlers, the better event, right? Whatever is loud, extravagant, large, and flashy WILL draw more spectators.

I have conducted my own small survey amongst some of my friends and relatives. (not reenactors) These peoples’ first impulse would be to attend mega event “x” because there is “more.” After a brief lesson on why mega event x is not accurate, some people said they would now rather attend a smaller event to observe re-lived history as accurately as possible. The ones who converted were interested in knowing the truth for themselves and educating their children, primarily. The ones who did not were only interested with being entertained.

Most of the time, truth is not as entertaining as the circus. If people would understand that statement, we would have little to discuss here.

I think we need to remember that in EVERY community, no matter how despicable, goodly, or idealistic, will have hotheaded, flamboyant loud-mouths. Ignore those persons, and problems will decrease, I surmise.

In my opinion, the “overall pool of people” can decrease and decrease, so long as our side of the hobby stands strong/grows. When “we” start shrinking, then we have a problem.

I am humbly,