How do you mail a musket?

[Barno]

UPS says they won't do it. Any ideas?
Thanks
Dave

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[JimKindred]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

Dave,

We go through this about every six months on the forum. It is legal to ship a musket either by the post office or UPS. By Federal law they are not considered firearms under the 1968 Gun Control Act. You talked to the WRONG UPS representative, some either are ignorant of their own company's policies or have a personal agenda against firearms.

Speak with their supervisor or call 1-800-PICK-UPS. The 800 number will get you to someone who knows their company regulations. Keep asking for the next higher up until you get the correct answer which is that you can ship that musket. DO NOT TAKE NO FOR AN ANSWER.

If you email UPS make sure you explain in your email that this is a reproduction muzzleloading Civil War musket and is not considered a firearm.

http://www.ups.com/forms/e-mail/general?loc=en_US

[Enfilade]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

If you are dealing with the "UPS man" that picks up your business packages in the afternoon they will definitely say no. They're programmed to do so.

If you take it to the counter at a "mail boxes etc.", they will also say no.

DHL or FED-EX are the same way.

The absolute best way is to get a licensed gunmaker/gunsmith to accept your shipment or ship it for you. That is the only way to get it done immediately.

But like Jim Kindred says, you'll need to talk to a "higher up" or either tell the UPS guy a lie like it's a Big Bertha driver! Dont do that. Unfortunately, you have to go around your elbow to scratch your arse on this one.

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles
combinations@northstate.net

[JimKindred]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

The musket in question is NOT a firearm under Federal law and the majority of states and therefore does not fall under any prohibited catagory either by UPS or the USPS. Just this morning I received an antique rifle in the mail.

"If you are dealing with the "UPS man" that picks up your business packages in the afternoon they will definitely say no. They're programmed to do so."

I will have to toss the BS flag down on this one. My regular driver as well as temporary drivers have never given me any trouble shipping firearms.

"The absolute best way is to get a licensed gunmaker/gunsmith to accept your shipment or ship it for you. That is the only way to get it done immediately."

Guy comes to me to ship a muzzleloader for him on my FFL I will tell him to box it up and ship it himself as he does not need me to do it for him. There is no requirement for it to go through an FFL. Most FFL's will charge $25-30 for this service and it is money wasted on a muzzleloader.

The problems arising from this must be regional as I have never had a problem shipping a firearm modern or antique, FFL or not, in the past 30 years of shipping them in the South.

There seems to be a phobia about shipping firearms by those who do not know the rules, regulations or laws concerning such. Don't check with the one behind the counter, those aren't usually the big decision makers in any organization, go higher. Search the forum, you will find several threads on this topic.

Shipping these things isn't rocket science, don't make it harder than it is, put it in a box, put a label on it and ship it. If you have any questions please feel free to contact me directly.

[Enfilade]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

[QUOTE=JimKindred]The musket in question is NOT a firearm under Federal law and the majority of states and therefore does not fall under any prohibited catagory either by UPS or the USPS. Just this morning I received an antique rifle in the mail.

"If you are dealing with the "UPS man" that picks up your business packages in the afternoon they will definitely say no. They're programmed to do so."

I will have to toss the BS flag down on this one. My regular driver as well as temporary drivers have never given me any trouble shipping firearms.


Jim, there is no need to flag this with BS. I am here to tell ya that since I ship shirts on a regular basis, when I decide to ship a firearm, my UPS guy says whooa! That doesn't make it right, but it is a fact. And that is probably the same thing Barno is going through as well. We don't ship firearms at all. All of a sudden we decide we want to ship a long bulky box to somewhere then the UPS guy says, "Is this a gun?". If it's unusual, then they are absolutely told to say no! You ship military replica hardware all day everyday. They know what you are doing and that you aren't doing this out of the ordinary. Whereas me or Barno here aren't.

The problems arising from this must be regional as I have never had a problem shipping a firearm modern or antique, FFL or not, in the past 30 years of shipping them in the South.

No its not regional. It's because of 9-11 and everybody needs to cover their arse now, including UPS.

There seems to be a phobia about shipping firearms by those who do not know the rules, regulations or laws concerning such. Don't check with the one behind the counter, those aren't usually the big decision makers in any organization, go higher. Search the forum, you will find several threads on this topic.

Jim, if this was not a big deal don't you think that the "guy behind the counter" or the "UPS driver" would ship anything no matter what? It is a big deal. Does that make it right? No. I'm with you in that this is a bunch of BS. But the fact of the matter is they are programmed, I'm tellin' ya, to stop weapons from shipping no matter what century they are from. But, if you take the time to explain to get an OK from the Head guy in charge, they will "OK it". But they won't just take it and put it on a truck without an OK. Been there and done that.

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles
combinations@northstate.net

[JimKindred]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

Mark,

If you are having trouble with the local UPS office I would report them to the HQ's of UPS and let the answer come from on high. Someone at your local office needs a knot snatched in their butt. You are paying for a service they provide, someone needs to make them do their job.

As far as 9-11 goes, it hasn't changed any UPS policies or Federal law with regards to muzzleloaders. Some employees like to use 9-11 for a convenient excuse rather than knowing what their company policy is.

With regards to the long box, people ship those everyday, just tell them it is a piece of pipe and some wood. ;)

[Enfilade]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

Jim, I just had the UPS guy here picking up our shipments going outbound and I asked him all about it. Here is what he said....


"Federal law for shipments by UPS are now Next Day Air only". The reason? He said too many part-timers were involved with their hands on packages going ground and many firearms were "disappearing". So whenever a shipment is now docked it gets scanned no matter what.

He also asked me the same things. Here's how the conversation went:


I said, "Hey Mike, can you ship a firearm for me?". He shakes his head no. I said, "What about a muzzleloader replica?". He asked, "Is it operational?". I said, "It sure is, why do I need a special permit or something?". He says, "You must be a licensed dealer to ship it". He did say that you'd need to call and get an OK from a higher-up before he could pick it up(as we stated before), but that this was even in place before 9-11. He also suggested that I call UPS and don't speak to just the first person I get.

The main reason he said for the policy was "stolen weapons".

He also made mention of a "retired NC State Hwy Patrolman" who was a collector and was at a flea market selling weapons legally in Wilmington. There, a man approached him wanting to trade him a weapon for one in his collection. He did so. It was a sting operation and the 60 year-old ex-Hwy patrolman was incarcerated for 18 months and it took $100,000 in lawyer's fees just to get that! This was after 9-11. It's surely a different world here now.

Just thought I'd pass that along.

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles
combinations@northstate.net

[Canton Zouave]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

I have shipped my duty pistol 3 times and a precision rifle for work on my own time and money through UPS with no problems. All I had to do was secure the action with a zip tie, properly mark the package per the manufacturers secifications (Para Ordnance & MacMillan), and tooh the weapon to the nearest UPS distribution center walk in office. UPS, did ask, once to leave the package open for inital inspection. They then sealed the itme with UPS security tape, and away they went. Returns were usually next day air through Airborne Express. (Para Ordnance did this...cause I needed the gun back ASAP) No problems at all, and all since 9-11.

You may even want to try Airborne Express. They recently shipped me 40 M-16's/M-4's for a school, directly from Colt. They were shippred complete, boxed in a large air transit cabinet, and marked "GUN PARTS". Technically they are gun parts, just assembled. No problem shipping there either.

Everyone I have talked to has recommended stating (GUN PARTS) for shipping purposes, and then insure the itme for what the gun is worth.

Oh...yeah...the only reaosn I mention modern arms is the fact that since I havent had any problems personally sending out some serious weaponry...a muzzle loader should be no hitch.

Just my thoughts and experiences.

[JimKindred]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

Your UPS man needs to get his facts straight. I reread UPS's policy on firearms this afternoon on their website and it contradicts this man's statements. I think the manager at that facility either needs to learn about his own company’s policies or enforce those that he does know.

Both the ATF and UPS website have a great deal of information regarding the shipment of firearms.

Federal law does not dictate shipments of firearms be by next day air, this is a UPS policy, which only affects handguns. It was put into effect because THEY could not control the thefts in their own warehouses and trucks by their employees.

How many sutlers ship without an FFL or by something other than next day air? Most if not all.

"Retired NC State Hwy Patrolman"

As far as that story goes a similar sting operation took place at a flea market in TN not that many months ago. Nothing to do with 9-11 in both cases the individuals were breaking the law by engaging in a firearms business without an FFL. This has been on the books since 1968 and is regularly enforced. You can read about these and other busts on the ATF website.

Sounds like your UPS office just needs to learn the rules. It is like here, every now and then I have to tell someone that their firearm isn’t registered just because they fill out Form 4473, all it does is show what I did with the firearm that is in my books. The funny thing about the whole deal is that our state has no firearms registration of any sort so how can it be registered.

[Agate]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

That sure sounds like a North Carolina law, and not Federal. The trooper, if in Ohio, would have been able to trade all day long, unless I just didn't read your post properly. Private exchange has never been out of bounds, that's how gun dealers make a living. Buying and re-sale, small shops can make a better profit as opposed to selling only new products.

John

John Sarver

BTW, Hey Dave.

[Csayankee]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

Barno,

Being one that is trained in explosive investigation. If I have to send anytype of explosive residue anywhere in the country I have to use UPS. The Post Office will not allow it even for an governement agency. But the package most be properly mark. So go to the main UPS office in you region and speak to them. I have been told that there is not problem with the shipping as longas they know and mark it right.

[JimKindred]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

John,

That is true to some extend, however the law they broke was Federal. Casual selling and buying of firearms is allowed under Federal law but you cannot be engaged in the business of buying and selling without an FFL as these fellows were. That is where the rub comes in.

[Agate]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

Thanks Jim,

I understand now.

Hallo Herr John! I realize this is short reply, but... please sign all your posts per Forum Rules (that auto sig feature is a big help...). Thanks. Curt-Heinrich Schmidt, Moderator

[JimKindred]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

Dave,

That is one of those deals in the gray area.

For those of you wanting to know the exact legalities of a musket here it is direct from ATF -

Do antique firearms come within the purview of the GCA? [Top]

No. "Antique firearms" are defined in the following:

TITLE 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 SECTION 921(a) (16)

(16) The term "antique firearm" means-

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, Or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica- -

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

(ii) uses rinifire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

C) any muzzle loading rifle muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term 'antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breech-block, or any combination thereof.

27 CFR 178.11

Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designated or redesignated for using rinifire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rinifire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

This information can be found at - http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nlc/ffl/faqs_genques.htm#q4

Basically what all that means is that the musket is not covered by the 1968 Gun Control Act. It has no meaning as a firearm as defined when talking about regulated firearms under Federal law.

[Agate]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

Which certainly explains why the little ATF gal agents that I used to encounter at the gunshop I worked at never raised a brow when I sold repro Colt Walkers over the counter. Yet gave me all sorts of grief over a couple of displayed, non-working, piece of junk owl head saturday night specials I didn't record in a trade.

Ahhh, now over to Gunauctions.com to start looking for a Lebel or an early Mauser. Don't ask me why.

Regards,

John

Hallo Herr John!

Please sign all your posts per Forum Rules (that auto sig feature is a big help...). This is your Second Warning.

Thanks.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt, Moderator