How do you mail a musket?

[Darrell Cochran]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

UPS says they won't do it. Any ideas?
Thanks
Dave

In the past 3 years I have shipped 3 muskets via UPS with no problem, at least as far as boxing it up and getting it into the system is concerned ... The condition of one of them upon arrival is another matter. Now, I am fortunate in that I live just a short drive from a UPS shipping center here in Northern Virginia, where I took the items and dropped them off.

Anyway, just a couple of weeks ago I shipped my son's former 1853 Enfield to a fellow in trade for his 1861 Springfield. Both of us shipped via UPS, and he lives in New Jersey, which as I understand it is about the most anal state in the Union when it comes to anything that launches bullets.

As others have suggested, it may be who you're asking that's the problem and not the service itself.

[Barno]

Thanks fellows! I'll try & will advise results.

Hey John! Hope all's well!

Dave

[PogueMahone]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

I shipped a brand new Enfield back to Lodgewood to have a problem with the lock repaired. I used UPS. I told them what I was shipping and they had no problem. I bought insurance. (Key statement there.) I used a box that a buddy gave me that he shipped original muskets in.

UPS dropped the musket, broke the box and damaged the stock. Suddenly, there were a lot of questions about what I was shipping. It took FOREVER (3 months!!) to get the musket back from UPS. I finally had to contact BBB and the Tenn. Consumer Protection folks. I got the musket back the next day and a check for a replacement stock in the mail the next day.

They guy at UPS said the insurance adjustor was looking at the packaging and wanted to see 2 - 3 inches of packing materials between the container wall and the item. The box I shipped in was only about 4 inches thick!

Short version, Lodgewood was great about it and fixed the problem and got the musket back ASAP. UPS blew chunks and lost a customer. I cringe when I see the brown truck now.

.02,

[Fod]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

Seven months exactly since the last thread...

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=784

Here's my post from that thread....

"Get a couple priority mail triangular "tube" mailers from the post office and tape 'em together.

To see rule on mailing muskets, go to the post office Domestic Mail Manual C024 at http://pe.usps.gov/text/dmm/C024.htm

"2.0 Antique Firearms
Antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces may be accepted for mailing without regard to 1.3 through 1.6.

3.0 Rifles and Shotguns
Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 1.1e and 1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 1.1e."


Check out the the ATF at http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/geninfo.htm

Regarding the GCA and NFA, to illustrate the distinction between the two definitions of antique firearm under the GCA and NFA, a rifle manufactured in or before 1898 would not come under the provisions of the GCA, even though it uses conventional ammunition. However, if such rifle has a barrel of less than 16 inches in length AND uses conventional fixed ammunition which is available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade, it would still be a firearm subject to the provisions of the NFA.


An antique firearm as defined in BOTH the GCA and NFA is exempt from all of the provisions and restrictions contained in both laws. Consequently, such an antique firearm may be bought, sold, transported, shipped, etc., without regard to the requirements of these laws."

[JimKindred]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

Daniel,

Sort of like I said in my original post in this thread, this comes up about every six months or so. I provided a great deal of information in the thread you referenced.

Why something as simple as shipping a musket has to become so complicated I don't know. If we ever have a FAQ section I will be more than happy to moderate that and make changes to it as regulations or laws change. Being an FFL dealer I have to stay on top of those and it would be no problem to pass that information along on the forum.

Most of the problems seem to be with UPS employees not knowing the rules of their company. If every time someone ran into this problem they would call the UPS HQs and raise Cain about it eventually their local office would get the message.

[Barno]

Phone fun (or what the UPS lady said)

Just worked up my nerve to try the court of final appeals, the UPS 800 line.
Lady was super nice & very professional.
1) I'm not a dealer so I can't ship a musket. Even if it can't be fired with a single hand.
2) I'm not shipping my musket to a dealer as a result of repair or service so I can't ship my musket.
3) I can't disassemble my musket and ship the collected pieces together.
4) If as a hunter, I wanted to mail my musket to another state for a hunt rather than carry it on an airplane, I can't mail it to myself either.

I'm not the least bit upset. If I were screening packages, a musket would look like an RPG to me. Kinda like smoking. It's okay to smoke, but only if the restaurant owner agrees.
Thanks for the help.
Dave

[JimKindred]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

Dave,

You talked to the wrong one again and far from it is she the last court of appeals. Call back, ask for a supervisor and keep working up the chain until you get the right answer. Every thing she told you is just the opposite of what Federal law and her own company regulations state. My god, I talked to UPS yesterday about this and there was no problem for a non FFL holder to ship a musket through UPS. They are one of the most screwed up shipping companies on this earth sometimes.

You continue to have trouble call me or email me. I will call UPS myself and get the extension of the person you need to talk to.

[JimKindred]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

90% of the sutlers who sell and SHIP muskets are non FFL holders, get UPS to explain why they can ship and you can't. Under their regulations and Federal law you have just as much right to ship that musket as they do. Yes, this is a hot button topic with me.

[Canebrake Rifle Guards]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

Well- I've shipped muskets by UPS. A few years back a friend of mine bought a fully functional STEN gun, it arrived by UPS. Go figure,

Are these tighter controls a result of terrorism fears?

Greg Starbuck

[JimKindred]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

First to answer, Greg's question. The rules have not changed at all. I have received several rifles this week through UPS.

Now to address Dave's problem.

Dave,

I called the UPS 800 number on my way to the post office after reading your message. I called the same number anyone else would, rather than wait through the menu I punched O and talked to the first person that answered. I identified myself as a gun dealer and that I was calling on behalf of a non-licensee who was trying to ship a reproduction antique musket. I told him that you had been told “no” by the local office as well as the 800 number. This fellow told me that as far as he knew the rules had not changed but he would look them up. A few seconds later he read to me from the UPS playbook the description of an antique or reproduction musket that was all but word for word what I had posted in this thread from the ATF website. He went on to read that the shipping of your musket was allowed under UPS rules.

The problem may be that you are either going to a UPS Store or UPS drop off point rather than a UPS Center. The first two are franchises and are not allowed under UPS rules to accept firearms but they may be confusing what you have with a modern firearm. So he recommended that you take the package to a UPS Center, this is the place where the trucks are loaded and unloaded. If they give you any trouble tell them to call their supervisor and if he gives the wrong answer ask him to call his boss. Keep going up the ladder until you get the correct answer as written in the UPS regulations. Don’t let these folks give you the run around, just remember there is someone who knows how to look the answer up between the idiot at the counter and the correct answer.

The man on the phone said there was no excuse for the answers you got when you called the 800 number. He said for you to call that number again and speak to shipping. If the person there gave you the wrong answer have them look up “antique reproduction firearm” or “antique firearm” for the correct answer. Should that not work call the 800 number again and punch 0 to speak with someone in his department.

One thing to remember when you are dealing with firearms you will many times run across people with an agenda against them and they will always give you the wrong answer simply because they don’t like firearms. Not saying this is the case here with who you have been talking with but it may be.

If you continue to have trouble please feel free to call me at 662-287-8234 and I will help you all I can with this.

[csa_by_choice]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

I'm the recipient of this firearm if it is ever able to be shipped. I want to thank everyone for all their help with this situation. My original suggestion was to remove the barrel from the stock and ship them seperately. Wouldn't that eliminate any issues? I'm hoping I can get this gun because it's a defarb and I'm working on my impression. Thanks again for all the help!!!

[JimKindred]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

Nathan,

It should not be a problem if you guys do what I suggested in the above post. Like I said I called them this afternoon and it should be no problem to ship that thing.

[Enfilade]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

"BY GOD YOU"RE ALL RIGHT Jim, I don't care what UPS says about you! :wink_smil

Thanks for all your diligent work. You've certainly helped us all with at the very least, motivation.

Good work.

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles
combinations@northstate.net

[JimKindred]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

The heck with what UPS says about me, you should hear some of the things I say about them sometimes. :tounge_sm

I wish I lived close to the fellow trying to ship this musket, I would love to go to that UPS office and put a boot in their a--. Every one I have talked to at UPS understands what is going on.

Oh, well, I am going flying tomorrow so maybe being around some Apaches will calm me down a bit. :wink_smil

[JimKindred]

Re: How do you mail a musket?

Not to raise this subject again too high but this is from the UPS website. For further clarification you must call 800-PICK-UPS when dealing with antique reproduction firearms. Please take note of the last paragraph in red.

From the UPS website:

Shipping Firearms

Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms

Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment
Firearms will be transported only between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors, as defined in the United States Gun Control Act of 1968.


You must ship your packages that contain handguns with UPS Next Day Air Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, or UPS Next Day Air Saver® services
In locations where a UPS Next Day Air service is not offered, you must ship your packages that contain handguns with the most premium domestic air service available.

Your packages that contain firearms will not be accepted for shipment at UPS Letter Centers, with UPS SonicAir® service, UPS Authorized Shipping Outlets (ASOs), or with international services.

Please note that it states ".... as defined in the United States Gun Control Act of 1968." which does not include muzzleloading firearms or those firearms made before 1898 not using readily available fixed ammunition.

Also note that shipments containing firearms must be taken to a UPS Center, no other UPS location can accept them.

I do hope that in the future we can cut and paste the rules and procedures I have posted into a FAQ section so that we do not have to beat our brains out every six months when this topic comes up. :wink_smil

If anyone has any questions about shipping a firearm please feel free to contact me and I will help you all I can with it.