Up For Discussion

[jsemovoski]

Gettingsto all,
A few friends and I are having a dicussion. Is it approporiate to have a Richmond Depot II Jacket made of Jean Cloth or should it be made of Kersey Wool. Just something I thought that I would put that up for discussion. Let me know what you think.

Grace & Peace
Josh
Gettysburg,PA
jsemovoski@ltsg.edu

[cprljohnivey]

Re: Up For Discussion

yup.......

[Dignann]

Re: Up For Discussion

Josh,

What Brad said. Also, take a look through Les Jensen's "A Survey of Confederate Central Government Quartermaster Issue Jackets"

Don't forget to include your full name on your posts.

Eric

[Calico Boys]

Re: Up For Discussion

http://www.military-historians.org/company/journal/confederate/confederate-1.htm

This should answer your questions.

[Richmond Depot]

Re: Up For Discussion

Guys, the article cited above is a good source for laying down a basic guideline for the general time frame of useage of the styles of jackets shipped out of Richmond.

The description of the fabrics used in construction of the examples cited is very confusing.

For example, the John Blair Royall jacket, cited as being a rough cotton wool mixture, which from this description one could think of as Jean Cloth is actually a Satinette fabric.

The Ramsey RDII which is referred to as a Cadet Grey wool is actually English Army Kersey.It is acknowledged that it( fabric) could be of English Manufacture.

The RDII jacket of George S. Bernard, which is refrerred to as a rough ,dark greenish grey wool is actually a very lightweight, coarsely woven Jean cloth. The color of which has probably changed over time from a charcoal. I have seen the notes and photo's supplied to the Petersburg Siege Museum on this jacket by Mr. Jensen.

Fabric used in the construction of the George Greer Jacket, described as having an "unusual" weave is actually a Cadet Grey broadcloth.

Mr. Jensen was the pathfinder of all of our studies and has brought us to the level that we are at today. While this article is a good basis, we must remember that this article was written CA:1989 or so and our pool of shared knowledge has grown since that time.

My thoughts regarding fabric used in Richmond produced garments is basically this....

1. Jean cloth was there and was used. But what quantity was it used in? Is it over represented by today's reenacting community ? After all, the descriptions given, even in period descriptions referring to Cotton -Wool mix could also be Satinette or Cassimere couldn't they ?

2. Why are the majority of surviving pieces in Kersey or Satinette ? Is it possible that most of the Jean Cloth pieces were "used up"? Or maybe jean cloth wasn't as widely used as we think ? Yes, I am familiar with the last uniform,last issue theory and think that it is a decent rule of thumb. But there should be more pieces out there constructed from Jean Cloth than what we are seeing based upon the sheer numbers produced. Please note, I am not saying that Jean cloth was not used, but maybe we need to open up our mindset regarding the use of other fabrics besides Jean Cloth.

While I have traveled alot, and viewed as many surviving Richmond pieces as is humanly possible, I know that I have probably missed some along the way. If anyone knows of any Richmond Pattern jackets that may be tucked away in obscure public or private collections, please PM or email me so that I can plan on making an in person visit for note taking and photography..

[jsemovoski]

Re: Up For Discussion

Guys, the article cited above is a good source for laying down a basic guideline for the general time frame of useage of the styles of jackets shipped out of Richmond.

The description of the fabrics used in construction of the examples cited is very confusing.

For example, the John Blair Royall jacket, cited as being a rough cotton wool mixture, which from this description one could think of as Jean Cloth is actually a Satinette fabric.

The Ramsey RDII which is referred to as a Cadet Grey wool is actually English Army Kersey.It is acknowledged that it( fabric) could be of English Manufacture.

The RDII jacket of George S. Bernard, which is refrerred to as a rough ,dark greenish grey wool is actually a very lightweight, coarsely woven Jean cloth. The color of which has probably changed over time from a charcoal. I have seen the notes and photo's supplied to the Petersburg Siege Museum on this jacket by Mr. Jensen.

Fabric used in the construction of the George Greer Jacket, described as having an "unusual" weave is actually a Cadet Grey broadcloth.

Mr. Jensen was the pathfinder of all of our studies and has brought us to the level that we are at today. While this article is a good basis, we must remember that this article was written CA:1989 or so and our pool of shared knowledge has grown since that time.

My thoughts regarding fabric used in Richmond produced garments is basically this....

1. Jean cloth was there and was used. But what quantity was it used in? Is it over represented by today's reenacting community ? After all, the descriptions given, even in period descriptions referring to Cotton -Wool mix could also be Satinette or Cassimere couldn't they ?

2. Why are the majority of surviving pieces in Kersey or Satinette ? Is it possible that most of the Jean Cloth pieces were "used up"? Or maybe jean cloth wasn't as widely used as we think ? Yes, I am familiar with the last uniform,last issue theory and think that it is a decent rule of thumb. But there should be more pieces out there constructed from Jean Cloth than what we are seeing based upon the sheer numbers produced. Please note, I am not saying that Jean cloth was not used, but maybe we need to open up our mindset regarding the use of other fabrics besides Jean Cloth.

While I have traveled alot, and viewed as many surviving Richmond pieces as is humanly possible, I know that I have probably missed some along the way. If anyone knows of any Richmond Pattern jackets that may be tucked away in obscure public or private collections, please PM or email me so that I can plan on making an in person visit for note taking and photography..

Great information really helps... So would it better for the RD II jacket to be made of Sow Brown Satinette or Gray Satinette? Also, should the RD Pants be made of the same color?
Thanks.

Joshua J. Semovoski
Gettysburg, PA
jsemovoski@ltsg.edu

[Richmond Depot]

Re: Up For Discussion

Great information really helps... So would it better for the RD II jacket to be made of Sow Brown Satinette or Gray Satinette? Also, should the RD Pants be made of the same color?
Thanks.

Joshua J. Semovoski
Gettysburg, PA
jsemovoski@ltsg.edu

Actually, I would reccomend you to find an existing jacket, preferably documented to the unit that you portray or good period descriptions of, and go from there regarding color selection. Each unit has varying guidelines for uniforms.

[Calico Boys]

Re: Up For Discussion

Scott,

I was going to post something about the materials to the effect that you did, however I decided not to for fear of being hung for making the remarks about the materials.

I have not been able to see as many original "Richmond" jackets as you have, however the 2 I have seen were not made from Jean wool. I have friends who have talked with some collectors who own them, and none of theirs were jean wool either. Anyhow there's several conclusions one could draw on to why there isnt many surviving richmond jackets made from jean wool. Probably something we will never know the full truth on.

[Richmond Depot]

Re: Up For Discussion

Casey,

Yes, I was rather hesitant at first to make the posting. Having talked to some of the more advanced collectors and curators, I usually pose the question to them, Of the surviving garments that you have seen or owned with a Richmond Provenance, what has the fabric been? Usually, the response will be either Kersey or Satinette.

Things that further complicate the issue are the surviving receiving ledgers from the Clothing Bureau that list some of the fabrics being received in for processing. Once again, you have the vague references to Cotton-Wool and Wool-Cotton fabrics. Again, both could be Jean, Satinette or Cassimere. However, it should be noted that there ARE distinctive references to jean also being received. This information was shared with me by a friend in Norfolk. Thanks Mike. :)

[tmdreb]

Re: Up For Discussion

Scott and Casey,

I understand your caution. I got griped at a couple years ago or so (may still be here somewhere) for daring to suggest that CS reenactors start wearing more BG kersey garments.

[Calico Boys]

Re: Up For Discussion

Phil,

It is a really tricky subject, as you will have alot of reenactors who have items made out of jean, try to defend those garments etc.. I think the whole jean wool thing goes back to the days when the authentics wanted to seperate themselves from everyone else, and started to wear the jean wool garments, as at that point most CS stuff was just from plain wool. The trend stuck, and here we are 20-30 years later still stuck in that trend.

[jsemovoski]

Re: Up For Discussion

Phil,

It is a really tricky subject, as you will have alot of reenactors who have items made out of jean, try to defend those garments etc.. I think the whole jean wool thing goes back to the days when the authentics wanted to seperate themselves from everyone else, and started to wear the jean wool garments, as at that point most CS stuff was just from plain wool. The trend stuck, and here we are 20-30 years later still stuck in that trend.

One thing I would like to know is what first Depot Jackets from Kent, Paine & Company were made of. I think that might help to better trace the use of fabrics. I know that I want to improve my impression and so the more that I know about the fabric useage the better. The infomation that L. Scott Hanes passed along was great and questions that he asked are great. However, I do know of an example of an 1862 RD jacket that was made of Jean Cloth. The Jacket was owned by Andrew E. Diggs. But like Mr. Hanes said before there are far more examples of other RD jackets made of other material.

[1stMaine]

Re: Up For Discussion

Comrades,

One other thing I would toss into the fire is the issues to Longstreet's Corps prior to leaving for the west.

These issues were right in the middle of what might be referred to in the east as the "RDII Period", and apparently a good many of these were either of English Army cloth, or some similar material because of the descriptions given by those who both wore them, and saw them.

I have always thought that, from early 1863 onwards, the most under-represented color and/or material in eastern CS clothing is blue-grey kersey and/or English Army cloth, or some satinette or cassimere varient thereof.

Respects,

[Richmond Depot]

Re: Up For Discussion

One thing I would like to know is what first Depot Jackets from Kent, Paine & Company were made of. I think that might help to better trace the use of fabrics. I know that I want to improve my impression and so the more that I know about the fabric useage the better. The infomation that L. Scott Hanes passed along was great and questions that he asked are great. However, I do know of an example of an 1862 RD jacket that was made of Jean Cloth. The Jacket was owned by Andrew E. Diggs. But like Mr. Hanes said before there are far more examples of other RD jackets made of other material.

Since I have also looked at the Andrew Diggs Jacket and Trousers in person, tell me what it is about the jacket that makes you think that it is a Richmond Depot Jacket ? Have you looked at it in person or on p.134 of Echoes of Glory ? :)

The Diggs jacket resembles a RD, only in that it has Epaulettes and a 9 button front. Look at the pockets. Both trimmed in bright yellow trim along with the collar. Now, for what you can't see....with the coat lying on a flat surface, lift the sleeves up and fold them back. Sewn into and onto the bottom of both sleeves is a large piece of leather which acts as the lower sleeve. Why is it there ? Probably something to do with his service branch of cavalry. If someone were to show up at an event today wearing an exact reproduction of this jacket, he would probably be laughed off of the field. Yes, the Diggs jacket is made of Jean, Andrew Diggs was killed in July of 1862. This is a Commutation jacket, not a jacket produced by Richmond. Digg's trousers are constructed from a Marl jean and do not come close to matching the jacket it color, weave or texture.

To my knowledge, Kent, Paine & Co. never made uniforms for the Richmond Depot. They did make and fill orders for individuals and Companies outfitting for war from 1861-1862. This would be considered the Commutation period. The jacket that you seem to be referring to is the Courtney Jenkins jacket which is constructed from Satinette. Now, if you go back into the copies of the Richmond Examiner for 1861, you will find copies of the ad placed by K,P & C that specifically list the fabrics available by their firm as being Broadcloths, Satinettes, Cassimeres and Kersey's. Remember, not all Kersey would have been of English manufacture.

[CSchneider]

Re: Up For Discussion

After having looked at the Diggs trousers last week, they definitely have some interesting features. Would Mr. Hanes agree with me that they appear to be almost "bell bottoms?"

-Craig Schneider